The Rony Tan fiasco and perceived double standards in the application of Sedition Act
February 10th, 2010 | 
Author: OPINION
The recent public outcry over Lighthouse Evangelism Pastor Rony Tan’s disparaging remarks about Buddhism and Taoism and his subsequent questioning by ISD has divided Singaporeans on whether the punishment meted out is sufficient.
While some have called on the matter to be closed since Pastor Tan has already apologized, others argued that the application of the law must be fair in view of the arrests of three Chinese teenagers accused of posting racist remarks on Facebook a week earlier.
Then Commander of Bedok Police Division and Deputy Assistant Commissioner of Police Teo Chun Ching said:
“Police take a very stern view of acts that could threaten the social harmony in Singapore. The Internet may be a convenient medium to express one’s views but members of the public should bear in mind that they are no less accountable for their actions online.”
[Source: Straits Times, 4 February 2010]
Police reports have been lodged against Pastor Tan, but its inaction is baffling given the fact that Pastor Tan is in a position of authority to influence many people and therefore his remarks carry far greater weight and impact compared to the three teenagers.
When asked asked why the teenagers ended up arrested by the police, whereas the pastor was not, DPM Wong Kan Seng gave an equally vague reply:
“It is a very serious matter if anyone were to be hauled up and investigated by ISD. It is not less serious than getting investigated by the police. I assure you that it is not.”
One does not need to be a law professor to realize that being called up by the ISD for a “lim kopi” session is “nothing” compared to being arrested, charged and jailed as what happened to past offenders.
In June 2009, a Christian couple was sentenced to 8 weeks’ imprisonment for “distributing seditious or objectionable publications”. During the 11-day trial, it emerged that the SingTel technical officer and his wife, sent out about 20,000 publications in seven years.
Produced by an American firm called Chick Publications, the fundamentalist Protestant materials were “not only offensive for religious content but also have a tendency to promote feelings of ill-will or hostility between Muslims and Christians in Singapore”, said Judge Neighbour.
By distributing tracts with “callous, denigratory, offensive and insensitive statements on religion with aspersions on race”, the pair had committed “serious” offences that “have the capacity to undermine and erode the delicate fabric of racial and religious harmony in Singapore”.
[Source: Channel News Asia, 10 June 2009]
4 years earlier in 2005, two Singaporeans were jailed for posting inflammatory remarks about Malay Muslims on their blogs.
Benjamin Koh, 28, was given two concurrent one-month jail terms while Nicholas Lim, 25, was jailed for one day and fined S$5000 (US$2960) after they pleaded guilty to making strong anti-Muslim remarks.
“The doing of an act which has a seditious tendency to promote feelings of ill-will and hostility between races or classes of the population in Singapore is serious,” judge Richard Magnus said in handing down his ruling on the two.
[Source: AFP, 26 October 2005]
Under the Sedition Act, anyone found guilty of promoting feelings of ill will and hostility between different races or classes of the Singapore population shall be liable, on conviction for a first offence, to a fine not exceeding $5,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or both.
The extent to which feelings of ill-will and hostility is stoked by one’s remarks depends on three factors:
1. The person making them.
2. The number of persons hearing the remarks.
3. The circumstances under which the remarks were made.
In all the three cases above, the offenders have very little influence in society and the reach of their remarks was severely limited. It is highly unlikely that they will cause conflicts to arise in Singapore.
In contrast, Pastor Tan is a leader of the Christian faith and his church has a congregation of more than 10,000 followers and the interview with a former Buddhist mons and nun was well planned and orchestrated beforehand. Though it was pretty obvious that the tension generated by his remarks were far greater, the “punishment” he received doesn’t seem to commensurate with the severity of his wrong-doing.
DPM Wong disputed the notion that the pastor was let off lightly:
“The bottom line in such cases is that we must ensure that the OB (out-of-bounds) markers are clear and that transgressions are dealt with in a balanced and professional manner. Our agencies must be allowed to exercise their professional judgment on how best to achieve this outcome.”
Whether rightly or wrongly, there is a pervasive public perception that the authorities only go after “small flies” and not the “big fishes” in the application of the Sedition Act.
For a beginning, the authorities should consider making the three youths apologize to the Indian community publicly and letting them off with a slap on their wrists just like how they have dealt with Rony Tan.
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Say, 2 drivers knocked and killed someone while drink driving. One is the son of an influential elite belonging to the higher strata of society, while the other is a nobody (common everyday man).
Who do you think will be sent to prison with his license revoked, and who do you think will be let off with just a fine or worse, allowed to leave the country?
Actually, the verdicts are already out.
I am a Christian and my wife is a Buddhist. We have 3 children, aged 20 to 32 who are Christians through their own choice. We have absolutely no problem living in perfect harmony.
In a family, being right or wrong sometimes does not solve a problem. Giving and taking is a better approach. Singapore is a
nation made up of families. If we want to progress, we must sometimes learn to give and take. In this case, the pastor has apologized and the Buddhist leaders have accepted it. They both represent responsible religious institutions whose decisions should be respected.
Please let the matter rest and move on. Seeking revenge for the wrongdoer is not the best solution. Showing magnanimity is a virtue worth keeping. I have no doubt that Christianity and Buddhism can co-exist as it is in my family.
Temasek Review is a pro buddhism (fine with me) site as far as I understood – during the AWARE saga it had gone all the way out to publish articles showing how embracing Buddhism is towards Gays & Lesbians.
Now, no doubt, Rony Tan screwed up (maybe he should apologise in exactly the same words as Obama’s famous quote, “I screwed up”). But Temasek Review, please stop the shit stirring and Christian bashing (obliquely though). This is not what the Buddhism which you embrace teaches!
Yes, the 3 youths should be let off with a warning, but stop linking it to the screwed up Rony Tan, which has apologised and assured that he will not make the same mistakes again.
@Draculas who said: Yes, the 3 youths should be let off with a warning, but stop linking it to the screwed up Rony Tan, which has apologised and assured that he will not make the same mistakes again.
Whats so BIG FCUK about Rony that he SHOULD NOT be charged? By your reasoning, should the 3 youths be let off if they ALSO apologise?
@Wong KS, stop talking cock, there is no provision under the law for ISD to be able to charge anyone under the Sedition Act. ISD cannot even charge a person for Simple Theft even if they had wanted to!~
ISD can only touch ISA, if my memory is not failing me.
Draculas
You are absolutely right in your observation. I totally agree with you.
When Rev Ming Yi was arrested for his transgression, TR only published criticisms on him as a mortal. There were no criticisms directed at Buddhism, or any derogatory, disparaging, or inflammatory statements made against any Buddhists. All the criticisms in TR’s post were directed at Rev Ming Yi.
But when Pastor Tan fell with grace with his transgression, he was not only crucified by TR readers, but disparaging and inflammatory statements against Christianity and against Christians were posted so ever freely. As if this was not enough, TR put in a total of 6 threads (articles) on this matter in an attempt to evoke and stoke more fire against this religion.
As a free thinker who is neither Buddhist nor Christian, it is very apparent to me as well that TR is Buddhist influenced, and probably has an agenda of its own.
Rony’s apology is empty and lack sincerity. Tell you what let him also admit that he has been misleading his followers on the interviews and are therefore apologising to take responsibility for his unfounded insinuations and careless accusations, this way his apology will go done better to those who feel that he has been let off too lightly.
@Forgive and Forget on Wed, 10th Feb 2010 3:36 pm
Giving and taking is a better approach.
In this case, the pastor has apologized and the Buddhist leaders have accepted it. They both represent responsible religious institutions whose decisions should be respected.
Easily say than done. If someone got drunk, drive a car and hit one of your love one, would you say the same.
As mentions a hundred times in TR apology was not good enough. Yes Singapore Buddhist leaders have accepted it. But, the news is now in the international scene, let see how internet netizens will reacted.
Let’s be realistic. It’s just how things are supposed to work.
The arrest of the 3 teenagers was necessary as it was part of the Standard Operating Procedure for the Police – Police receives complaint, police investigates, police establishes identity of culprit, police makes arrest. Message sent to the public: don’t “play play” with the government’s OB markers.
Rony Tan’s case is different. There was no need for the police to really intervene in the form of investigation of the complaint, of establishing the identity of the culprit, and of making any arrest, because the evidence was plain for all to see and the identity of the culprit needed no establishing. So straight away, the ISD was involved. And when one is called up by the ISD in Singpore, we all know it cannot but be a BIG deal. Message sent to the public: don’t “play play” with the government’s OB markers.
If the authority were to arrest Rony Tan, who, we must admit, has considerable influence over and presumably commands the loyalty of thousands, the situation could become much more complicated. It could become messy. So, the pragmatic questions to ask would be: What useful purpose would the arrest serve? Why stir up a nest of hornets and create more trouble, when a neater and simpler solution would do?
Double Standards?
Could this be the reason why?
“The Singapore Song By Rony Tan”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O67SyJiyzY
As Rony wrote in the video’s description: “In deep gratitude to our protective and caring government all these 43 years, The Singapore Song was written in their honor. It is also specially dedicated to Mr & Mrs Lee Kuan Yew.”
So, if u know how to suck up to the powers that be, u can wriggle your way out of tight situations by issuing “Japanese Apologies” (the type of verbal gymnastics the Jap leaders have resorted to, to escape from making sincere apologies for their World War II crimes. And to head off any attacks from Japanese apologists, let me just ask them why the Japs could never follow the example of how the Germans made their apologies – just Google what the Germans did, compared to the Japs).
Rony Tan ( what kind of name is that anyway) didn’t teach me much about Buddhism, coz I know Buddhism is a lot more than what he is trying to insinuate. But I learnt a lot more about Christians.
Hi all,
TR has no religious agenda. There are both Christians and Buddhists in the TR managing team and we work very well together.
TR only goes for the news which sells – the more “hot” a subject is, the more articles we will publish on it.
Rony Tan is at least ten times more “popular” than Ming Yi.
Just yesterday alone, we received over 10,000 new readers who visited our site by googling “Rony Tan”.
As a matter of fact, we have respected Rony Tan’s wishes by removing his videos from our site when we are not obliged to do so.
If you feel we have been too harsh on Rony Tan and wishes to speak up for him, you can always write an article on it for us to publish on our site.
We are keen to hear from the Christians, Buddhists and Taoists on their views on this matter.
Please email your thoughts to us at temasekreview@gmail.com
Hope that clarifies.
Admin
Why is it disparaging remarks posted by readers about Christianity are being allowed for publication here? There are many here in your various threads and they certainly ar inflammatory and incendiary to say the least.
I am not a Christian (nor a Buddhist) and my view is rather middle ground. But I can sense a certain slant when I see one.
Thks for the instant reply though.
A christian will go to heaven after his death but non-christians will go to non-heaven.
If my wife is a buddhist, I’ll convert her to a christian if I love her as my wife and I want her to follow me to heaven after our death.
A christian will always defend his own christian bros just like muslims. May be they think and act with their hearts instead of their minds? But law is law, religion is religion, just like friend is friend, work is work.
WKS is either a christian himself or he’s just trying to distance himself from religion issues for “better” performance of his party in the coming GE?
Frankly after the MSK prison break, who will bother to listen to what WKS has to say now? The pastor is “lucky” enough to keep his pastorship after apologising.
single standard, double standards, so it’s ok to jump straight in to using some Internal Security Department when such issues arise, and not the police. so we need to keep the ISD around, in case in future we have such cases, and not the police. so we need them. to enforce this internal security.
I suggest that TR stop publishing on this issue as it is dividing the readers and does not serve any purpose. Please focus on issues relating to this screwed up govt . You may not realize it, but you are certainly chasing away your readers if you continue publishing on this religious issue that is boring me to my grave.
Just what do you hope to achieve by continually publishing this topic? Stay focus.
Spot On,
I am a free thinker too, but the AWARE saga and this Pastor Roney show has left a bad impression in me towards fundamental Christians. Hence it is wrong of you to direct the blame on TR when they are not the ones who cause these fiasco.
Note that Pastor Roney Tan’s act is criticised only by TR readers, but in almost all local forums. So why you only point fingers at TR? Given this is a current hot topic in this country, why should TR give it less attention?
As for Ven Ming Yi, if he is not punished under the law for his wrongful act, and just let off with a apology, I’ll be the first to voice my protest here. But he has been punished, hasn’t he?
I am neither a Buddhist or a Christian too, but what TR posted here is my concern too, so i would not be so quick to point the finger at TR and accuse them of having Buddhist influence. If TR has an agenda here, it is about the law being applied fairly. So why do you think Pastor Rony should not be punished by the law for his diliberate act? Do you think Ven Ming Yi should be let off with an apology too?
Hi Spot on,
We have deleted so many comments which appear to be disrespectful to Christianity that we have been receiving complaints from our readers that we are being pro-Christian.
It is impossible to please everybody at the same time. This is a free forum. If you disagree with the comments posted here, you always have the right of reply.
Please refrain from posting disparaging remarks about any religion or religious figures. They will be deleted immediately.
Those who keeps comparing between the couple who distributed seditious tracts and this pester Rony Tan should know that those two cases are not similar.
The couple distributed the tracts to the general PUBLIC with the intention of causing disharmony. They were caught red-handed MASS-MAILING and dropping a stack of the tracts into a post box at comcentre. One of tracts is titled ‘Who is Allah’, which obviously meant to denigrate instead of praising the Muslim God. Claiming ignorant is beyond believable.
Pester Rony Tan sharing session was meant for the Christian audience. The mistake here is that he didnt realise (or done intentionally) that the videos will utlimately end up in public if they were to be published online.
Thats where the punishments are different for those two cased.
Now back to the tracts ‘Who is Allah’, now they are fighting for the rights to use Allah in their worship in the Malaysian churches. How hypocrisy is that!
Hi, I am an x-christian, who believe in God. I have faith and respect in Buddha n also in Jesus. I hav attended Lighthouse n Rony Tan’s sermons. Wat Rony did was wrong. He got carried away. Understanding of other religions is base on his own impression. But he is a good n caring man. Forgiveness and Grace is what Buddha n Jesus preach. Lets forgive and forget. God bless.
May the Force be with U.
Stay focus
You are right. Previously I could see some matured readers making contributions here, but a few of them have already left.
This is to be expected. TR has transgressed to such a low depth that it is now left with lowly boxers fighting in the fighting ring, when the referee has already clearly ended it.
When you publish peanuts here you should expect to see monkeys responding. I think TR should brush up its image if it is to be looked upon by the majority of the electorate out there who do not behave like some of the readers here.
those 3 youths were arrested because the gahmen wants to fire a warning shot to netizens making anti-PAP comments online (the message is “dun think just because you are young and the comments are in cyberspace we wun catch you”)
christian pastor not arrested because LKY’s favorite granddaughter is an evangelical christian (according to the Nat Geo interview transcript)
hahaha this is a banana republic, LONG LIVE THE JUANTA, HAIL HITLER LKY
I think that Rony Tan lacks character. As a pubilc figure(at least to more than 10,000 members of his congregation) he should have the courage to at least stand by what he said. It was reported that he was somewhat trembling in fear when he personally apologised to the Buddhist monks.As a church leader, what kind of example is he showing? If he has the courage to speak out on anything, shouldn’t he also have the courage to stand by what he said. How is anyone going to believe him thereafter in his sermon/message. He could always change his tune to suit his favour. I remembered Nelson Mandela who was actually jailed for a considerably long time for his stand on apartheid. He was eventually released and became the leader for S.Africa. Till today, he is still highly respected.I cannot say the same for Rony. To me his stature has dropped many rungs.
Hi Admin
Again, thanks for the instant reply.
Like I said, I stay the middle ground. Neither a Christian nor a Buddhist. And I have not made a single remark on Pastor Tan or on Christianity. Neither did I post any when on Rev Ming Yi or Buddhism when the issue was red hot previously.
So I do not know why you chose to admonish me with the statement in your last sentence. If it was not directed at me, which I think was the case, you should have made it more clearly and included a note that it was a warning to anybody who has such intention (of making callous remarks on any religion).
Regards.
As long as the anonymous netizens are not seen as having the ability to pose any real threat to the well-being of the nation (and the government), they can continue to make as much noise as they want, for as long as they want, I doubt any further action will be taken by the government.
Rony Tan, on a personal front, if he is bothered by all the comments, might want to do something about it to placate the vocal crowd.
But as far as the government is concerned, it has done it’s part. To do beyond what it has already done (through the ISD) will probably be counter-productive to its key objectives.
IMPARTIAL on 10 Feb 4:57 pm,
If others are monkeys, then what are you? You are not any more mature then others.
There is no fighting, the discussion now is, to use your analogy, whether the referee is kayu.
If you think this is too low a standard for you, then why are you still here?
To Spot On,
I am still waiting for this “priest” to apologize on the behalf of the congregation in the videos who were laughing over his “joke” and “funnies” of others faiths/religions.
So far he is apologizing for his own “mistakes”, how about the other folks in the vidoes laughing away in jest…they think it is funny to make “fun” of other peoples faith/religion.
So far i don’t see any religious leaders of other faiths/religions making fun of christianity and other religions or having their congregations laughing away.
You may think this is a small matter….what happen if this videos [open to everyone and the world to access on "his" church website] is overlook or just laugh away…what’s thye next video, Ronny tan making fun of another major religion like islam or even other truer catholic faiths…do you know by then it will be too late…
Now what gives this “pastor” the right to just say sorry and move on. Because we should forgive and forget…the punishment must fit the wrongful actions he made by poking fun/belittling the faith of other peoples religions…the only real punishment is he should step down from his pastor position.
Anything less…you can infer from the below:
A hypocrite is a person who–but who isn’t? Don Marquis (1878 – 1937)
As witnesses not of our intentions but of our conduct, we can be true or false, and the hypocrite’s crime is that he bears false witness against himself. What makes it so plausible to assume that hypocrisy is the vice of vices is that integrity can indeed exist under the cover of all other vices except this one. Only crime and the criminal, it is true, confront us with the perplexity of radical evil; but only the hypocrite is really rotten to the core. Hannah Arendt (1906 – 1975), On Revolution (1963)
There are two sorts of hypocrites; ones that are deceived with their outward morality and external religion; and the other are those that are deceived with false discoveries and elevation; and men’s own rigtheousness, and talk much of free grace; but at the same time make rigtheousness of their discoveries, and of their humiliation, and exalt themselves to heaven with them. Jonathan Edwards
Good day to all.
I too belong to the “forgive and forget” camp. However, I also strongly advocate fair application of such acts to all.
However, I am worry our society has seemed to punish the poor, the nameless and the destitute so very easily and quickly (see the teenagers who got charged, drug runners who get hanged immediately and so forth) but the rich and powerful seemed only get a slap in the wrist. (durai getting only a few months’ jail, rich tycoon trading in organs and now a rich and powerful pastor getting an “interview”)
As such, for those who say, please forgive and forget the pastor, I agree with you 100% but now, what do you say about the teenagers and countless others “small fries” who has transgressed, do you think they deserved forgiveness and what have you done to speak out for them?
Or are we just taking sides purely based on religion, gender, race or whatever arbitrary groupings we deemed that we belong?
Heck, I am even willing to forgive PAP if they genuinely feel remorseful and turn for the better to work for the people (starting with facilitating a 2-party system).
@Spot On
Shame on you to say TR is Buddhist influenced. Can I say you are Christianity influenced too ?
I come from a very diverse religion family. My Mom was Christian(Roman Catholic- thank goodness), my Dad was somewhere between Atheist/Taoist. I have sibling who are Buddhist, Taoist, Muslim, Christian and me Free Thinker.
I don’t have problem with anyone them except the Christian one. In fact there no problem all along until at my Dad funeral. He refused even to pay a simple last respect let alone take up joss stick sitting there as an observer. What the big deal of taking the joss stick when its all new not even blessed or anointed in any way. To me it’s akin like taking up a lighted cigarette.
Yes Pastor Rony had apologized and apology accepted. That’s between them. But he had violated the Law. This Act is put up by the authority and should be applied to all fairly and squarely. So it should not only be heard but seen too. Let the Law takes its due course.
Pastor Rony had learned his lesson probably he won’t repeat it again. What if others do the same thing? Just apologize and life goes on again? Then what is use of having the Law in first place.
In Buddhism it call on all human to be harmonise, It not like other like the co-ran, it said can retribute double punishment on to your enemy, In the bubble, Julia Scissor said I come I see I conquer,So it teaches people how to robb each other.I think the Bastor has a motive to ster dishomony in the society.
I the Bible there are plenty of subject to preach, And the person who partner with him is an idiot, He can’t pass his motion & have to call on Jesus, So Jesus is an buttock cleaner.Next time when people are sick, they just call on Jesus ans instant cure,
So Singapore Clinic & Hospital have to close shop. Talk Cock
I believe this Rony Tan’s case has become a lightning rod for the unhappiness of many Singaporeans who perceive there is a double (or maybe even triple) standard the authorities deals with alleged offences committed by different strata of society.
Had there not been the 3 teenagers being arrested and out on BAIL pending further investigation, I believe Rony Tan’s case will be forgiven nand forgotten a lot more easily.
In fact, I think it is the authorities handling of these 2 cases that is being chanllenged as it seems that one is let off with a slap on the wrist while the others were put on bail.
If the govt wants this whole episode to blow over quickly, it will be wise to conclude the investigation of the 3 teenagers’ case quickly and let them off with a stern warning. Such a warning may be deemed fair by the public when compared to Rony’s case.
For the record, I don’t condone the teens alleged racist remarks whatever they may be (as I have not read those remarks).
btan on Wed, 10th Feb 2010 6:11 pm
//However, I am worry our society has seemed to punish the poor, the nameless and the destitute so very easily and quickly (see the teenagers who got charged, drug runners who get hanged immediately and so forth) but the rich and powerful seemed only get a slap in the wrist. (durai getting only a few months’ jail, rich tycoon trading in organs and now a rich and powerful pastor getting an “interview”)//
Make alot of sense. 100% agree with you. Cheers!
I will not post any reply to those who criticised my view of things they way I see it as an independent observer because the arguments put forth by them are so devoid of logic. It is said that one is fired up by emotion he cannot think clearly. Never argue with an angry man, that’s the proverbial advice. I shall take it.
Good day to all.
I always hold the view that Sedition Acts should not used lightly whether it is on the pastor case or the three teenage persons.
In the case of Pastor Tan, Government action and decision are supportable.
I hope that the 3 teenage persons be released with a warning.
It’s unfortunate Spot On take others criticism so personally.
For every question there are two answers. Sorry if that make you uncomfortable. But “angry man”? certainly I am not. If you would care to check my previous posting I am one of the first to call for a move on after TR publish Pastor Rony had issue an apology.
Like I said before that is between them.
Law being a Law it must be carried out without bias otherwise it would be seen as mockery. Whatever the outcome that’s another matter for another day.
For me , what i think of this matter.Always think thrice before what you said.Which he didn’t do it and it does insult on other religons.He did not understand other religons teachings before saying it.
This matter of course will cause conflicts.I hope that the pastor really learn his lesson and sincerely did the apologies.
Religion (Christianity) above Law?
Whitehorse?
Well-connected?
Anymore?
As a Libertarian, I dont pro the Christians nor the Buddhist.
However, from the view point of a layman, Rony DID infringe the law and as such, he should have been dealt with accordingly as provided by law.
Yes Pastor Rony had apologized and apology accepted. That’s between them. But he had violated the Law. This Act is put up by the authority and should be applied to all fairly and squarely. So it should not only be heard but seen too. Let the Law takes its due course is what this article is all about.
Apparently and in plain sight, this incident seems to suggest that the law is being applied ’selectively’ and only small flies are being punished and the ‘well-connected’ goes free. This is worrying and should be the ONLY point of contention meant in this article.
Whether he should be forgiven or forgotten is irrelevant.
Anyway, to those who think this article is not doing any good to anyone, they are most likely wrong. With this article, the authorities would be hard pressed to apply the law consistantly and the 3 youth might also be let off with a ’stern warning’ instead of being charged and jailed.
After this episode, I am optimistic that the three young immature teens will in all probability be sternly warned, but I would also want to see the three of them apologising publicly and sincerely and individually for their wrong-doing.
If any one of those three do not repent, then they should be dealt with more sternly as a deterrence.
Self professed X-tians=pharisees=many pro-x-tian MIW civil servants= shut-lup & sit down Aware Chris-lians=Derek Hong/Rony Tan=Idiotic double standard followers=dangerous, intolerant, variable conscience, spoilt, think themselves high-crass untouchables, sure go heaven, pit-bull must win at all costs obsession thinking=NO Accountability Always (after simple Hallellujah Halle Belle confession of sins)=EVIL LOSERS – period!
(You can see many such types are here in this forum. These insects love to saturate forums with their deluded spiel-they call it spread the gospel. If first you dun succeed, spread spread until they give up-just like disease.)
Temasek Review/TOC=open forum=Brave, HONEST factual DARING exchanges=tolerant TRUE Buddhists & TRUE Christians & other Faiths=slanted OF COURSE to AGAINST INjustice!=a TORN to ALL pro-elitism MIW-cum-right winged x-tians transgression=GOD sent! Ah-Mans, Om shaga shaga boomz (mock borrowed from Rony Tan video)
X-tians are spelt with an “X” cos they denote ERROR, are WRONG and they lack the essence of Christ. True Christians embodies Christ’s values and teachings, these vitals clearly lacking in today’s majority of the self serving, materialistic self-absorbed/professed wolf in sheep’s clothing wolf packs. Beware of these x-tians prowling around you everywhere, they will tear you to pieces if you let them in.
Like X’mas, it’s just a commercial materialistic rip-off & blatant aberration of something originally HOLY and REDEEMING.
We are in troubled times!
Pardons the all the typos…types too fastest and too keenest to postest so no checks la…
I also APOLOGISE.
Om shaga shaga BOOMZ! 
I am making my closing statement on my view on TR. The people who visit this site are small kids. There are adults, but they are still kids dressed in the body of adults.
The stupidity and self conceit of their writing is about everywhere and almost on every comments, save for a few more well balanced individuals who displayed some tenerity and control.
I know that these reactionaries will post instant reply to my comments here very soon, some of which, as expected, will be filled with profanities and thoughtless words of no consequence except to display their inability to accept criticism. For those who want to direct your anger and hatred at me for writing these objective comments, you are at liberty to do so. It is a certainty anyway.
However, I won’t be posting any further reply as I am logging out of TR because it seems that it is a site fit for kids only, this being my closing statement.
Good day to all.
@Free Thinker
Why hit below the belt? “Spot On” already said he leaving the scene. What you commented on him does not offer him the chance of right of reply, this being very dishonourable of you. Besides, it is talking about someone behind his back or after he has left.
Double Standards is RAMPANT la..
Every Singaporean Male who served NS will know about the term “WHITE HORSE”…
The term refers to sons of parents with certain connections and political influences… and these sons get preferential treatment in SAF during the NS period…
No matter how lousy and poor attitude they are…
They still get a comfy life in NS and get posted to OCS and become F*&KED UP Officers in the end…
This should be pretty familiar to many of our ministers..
In this Rony Tan’s case, it is also similar…
This pastor is a rich guy and probably have certain connections (Since his church has 12,000 members)…
That is why we are seeing distinct double standards being displayed here…
Wong Kan Seng Mas Selamat Incident … Deja Vu?
” (the message is “dun think just because you are young and the comments are in cyberspace we wun catch you”) ”
wasn’t it “all thanks to the ISD and ISA we make Singapore a safer place so we should keep both these entities around for more good years” ?
so without them, our police would be defenceless against such situations? that more pesters will roam free because we cannot detain them without trial for an indeterminate length of time?
do we really need these super-natural police to catch super-natural people? won’t regular police do?
@ Free Thinker
I do not think that “Spot On” is taking anything personally. This is a wrong observation from you. He is just telling readers here his disgust at the things that are being said here, which I tend to agree with him.
@ Alan
It would seem that all these hatred for Christianity that are carried in the bellies of some of the readers here are waiting for an opportunity to burst out. And Pastor Tan provided them that big break. So while disguising their posts as criticising Pastor Tan, they could not help sinking their teeth into the other poor Christians out there. If they think there are a lot of un-Christians Christians out there, they should also be aware that there are more un-Buddhists Buddhists out there as well.
To everyone
I think the buck should stop here. Enough has been said already. Why repeat the same points? Every angle, every alternative viewpoints have been heard. So let’s just all move on.
Avatar
How self righteous you are. Such self deceit. You never made any mistakes in your life. You never told any lies before in your life. You have never got angry before before in your life. You have never made a single injustice to anyone before in your life.
Your view is THE correct view. Your opinion is THE truth. Your way of life is THE way everybody should live, your values are THE values everyone should hold.
Such shameful outburst of self deceit bothering on insanity. Who are you to judge others? “Judge not others lest you yourself be judged”. Good advice, but he doesn’t know where it’s coming from.
For one man’s bad act all who associate with him, near him, or share same religious faith with him are all also guilty. And that indiscriminate attack on Christianity and Christians.
I wonder why TR keep on allowing this type of rubbish to be published here. It’s the same cheap ranting with full of sound and fury, but signifying nothing.
I bet you at least a dozen of these beasts here gonna jump onto my comments like a pact of wolves. Maybe what our old hairy one said about Singaporeans being daft is being substantiated by the volume of daft comments that keep on repeating here.
To all the ranters, it’s time to grow up.
N.b. If you want to post critical comments against me, by all means do so. I will not be posting any reply, these being my closing statement. Will be logging out of TR. It’s a site for small kids.
And we are paying mr wong ks millions of dollars to reply with vague responses. We are asking the reasons for the difference in treatment and he says both are equally serious? He would have failed his psle english.
Pastor apologises to buddhist n taoist head of sg. we buddhist are forgiving people. he made a mistake, be it intentionally or nt, we let it rest.
he would be safer if he stays away from e digital world
I hope our prime minister can also comment a bit on this issue. I respect him a lot just like a lot of us do. I believe his assuring words will definitely put a full stop to this issue.
1+1=2. It cannot be 3, 4, 5, or any other number. If I in my OWN HOUSE, state that 2 is the only correct answer and that the rest are wrong answers, and I have many good friends listening to me and applauding me, what is wrong with that???
@Rick, just curious, which COUNTRY are you from?
timbaktu? jkjk
sinkapore, dun suan Rick leh. i oso respect PM alot wan hor. i oso believe in his reassuring words de…still waiting to believe lor…
die eh…i always talk cok sing song, dun noe got the honor to lim kopi with isd or not?
Double standard !!
“Ah Tan” comments are unacceptable.
Shame on You on Wed, 10th Feb 2010 10:24 pm
“I am making my closing statement on my view on TR.”
Shame on You on Wed, 10th Feb 2010 11:14 pm
“N.b. If you want to post critical comments against me, by all means do so. I will not be posting any reply, these being my closing statement.”
————–
Eh, how come you no credibility ah? So fast come back one? Kena sai-shit!
It’s chris-lian clear that you choose NOT to have a sense of justice or retort logically. Typical, expected, boring.
You also probably wished the Femnist Mentor (AH-Where?) is your mother so you can tell everyone who hates double standards, elitism, fundamental x-tians, to Shut Lup and Sit downs. Boomz!
Simply based on your transgender immaturity…errr… transgressive….err….whatever lah, and the obvious ubiquitous trademark of a dime a dozen bitter little self serving high crass x-tian who misplaced his broken 2nd hand x-box, I shall FORGIVE you.
As you said, everyone makes mistakes.
By all means, do reply and throw your tantrums and spill more idiocy. I KNOW your type. You CANNOT resist reading contrary replies cos your whole lonely life revolves around intangibles. Sad hor ! Boomz!
Ah-Mans..or Amen. Man got no ass one hor? Shame on YOU..lol.
Lets put it in this way…
3 youths of race A, said disparaging remarks about race B on the internet (On the internet, if you don’t like it, you can choose not to read it). They were arrested, released on bail and are awaiting charges.
1 older person of religion A, said disparaging remarks of religion B in a public setting to thousands of listeners (who btw, are ‘forced’ to listen, in that they cannot shut their ears while inside). He was ‘invited’ for questioning with the ISD and let off with a warning.
The 3 youths will have a permanent police record, regardless if they are charged or not. The older person will not.
The 3 youths were jailed. The older person was not.
The 3 youths may have acted irresponsibly, but they are youths after all. Their statements were posted online, probably, without pre-meditation. The older person’s speech was pre-planned, probably rehearsed, with accompanying witnesses/interviewees to maximise impact.
The 3 youths posted the comments anonymously, giving little credibility to their statements. The older person has an established reputation, and his statement bears the full weight of this reputation.
If we take all this into account. Which party would have made a greater impression? The 3 youths or the older person?
Shouldn’t the result have been opposite? The 3 youths should have been ‘invited’ for questioning and let off with a warning. Whilst this older person should have been arrested and charged for sedition.
And I finish with ‘regardless of race, language or religion’
I am a Buddhist/Taoist, who have never placed much store in what a Christian pastor says. He has apologised, good let’s move on. Even if he insists that what he said was the truth and refuses to apologise, so what? Surely he should be entitled to his beliefs and have the right to articulate them to his congregation, however disagreeable others may find them to be. (But if he were to say to me that Buddha is the devil, I’ll probably give him a good whack but I am digressing. If most Christians share those beliefs, then naturally people of other faiths will view Christians as morons.)
However, the perception that the same one set of Laws are applied differently to lesser mortals is the conundrum, what with ill-defined and shifting OB markers.
3 youths were detained by law-enforcement agency A
older person was handled by law enforcement agency B
should both of these be A? or B? what is wrong with using A for both? or B for both? should we use A for other offences as well? how about using B for all other offences?
Why should the 3 youths be treated differently
We can argue all day till the cows come home but the facts are very simple.
Rony’s credibility is forever tarnished. If he carries on with his nonsense, ISD will come knocking again. If he changes his world views, he is one major hypocrite.
Now the real danger is when lesser mortals get too excited and do things that get themselves into trouble.
Rev Rony Tan used a jingle from the old pop song “The Witch Doctor” to imitate Buddhist chants.
It goes “ooh ee ooh ah ah, ching chang wah lah lah bing bang”.
Is Rev Rony trying to imply that Buddhist monks are witch doctors.
That the audience laughed along at his fun poking of Buddhism is a great shame.
Christians has asked others to show forgiveness.
We can forgive if it is something said or done on the spur of the moment.
What we saw on the 3 videos was deliberate, planned and calculated to discredit another religion.
We are multi religious society and we need to continue to keep the harmony and peace between us inspite of mistakes can be made because of the differences in beliefs and practises. The government will fairly and wisely deal with any offenders as laws and regulations are in place.
We should respect the authorities wise decisions in dealing with issues rising on racial offence and religious offence. They have to consider many things in taking the appropriate action to deal with offenders.
christians, muslims and hindus too can make complaints of how the buddhist and taoist inconsiderate practises of burning incense, burning jossticks,burning of spiritual papers,making loud noises beyond the allowed noice decibels with cymbals,drums and other instruments, loud wayangs and seasonal prayers with loud speakers disturbing the neighbourhood sometimes leading over the limited hours. Also the loud prayers done into late hours with cymbals and drums in the funeral services that runs for days. The offerings made to the dead and spirits in the public places with incenses and burning of needed items for the dead. Their practises offends other religious people as the ashes, smoke, smells and loud noises which is over the limit, disturbs the peace and causing stress to tired people, the sick, children, the aged and the sleeping people. It also dirties the house and damage homes curtains, furnitures etc etc.
In simple the noise and air pollution disturbing the neighbourhood together with damage to grasses, plants, trees and public properties is very offensive and breaking the laws.
The authorities who mostly seem to be buddhists or taoists themselves are lenient and look to the other side when these things are going on for a long time. However when other religions disturb the neighbourhood with their religious practises complaints are made by buddhists and taoists and authorities immediately take actions to curtail them. Is this because the majority are favoured more? or is it because of other religious people who being the minority are more tolerant?
When they do their prayers with loud noises, smoke,ashes and loud music disturbing and polluting the neighbourhood and their homes, is it not offensive and inconsiderate?
The masjid is told not to pray loud and their sound/call of prayer is controlled. The hindu temple is limited in many ways. the churches too are made to sound proof their halls and lower their noises and limit many of practises all with the reason not to disturb the neighbourhood and cause offense to others.
The buddhists and Taoists are the majority in our country therefore does it mean they can do anything as they like freely without giving consideration to others?
We could go on and on, trying to find faults with each other. Then where are we heading to? hatred, bitterness and create disharmony and persecution to the other and eventually to voilence?
Come on lets learn to tolerate and respect other religions and their practises too and not continue to keep complaining about them and try to put them down.
Well said. Wong Kan Seng contradicts himself. The pastor remarks fall under the Sedition Act.
Wong saaid that the Police investigated the case against the 3 teenagers because a Police report has been lodged. A police report has also been lodged against the Pastor, why no Police investigation?
@Judge&Jury on Thu, 11th Feb 2010 10:47 am
Wrong lah, problem was when this pastor thought that he was a Demi spirit and can pass judgment on other religions.
Actually his congregation shares some part of the blame as their support silence as well as laughter probably made this pastor feel even more convinced that he is above everyone else.
Fact:
1. WKS got this right with just a lim kopi session.
Reason:
Charge / Jail the fool and this whole thing can spiral out of control beyond anyone’s expectation especially after he has publicly apologized. What can be foreseen is his fraternity rallying and sticking up for him via some means or protest thus causing even more religious disharmony. Make no mistakes peoples, sometimes the best solution is not one that is the most tastefully done or in our standards “fair”.
@Ratnam….
your views and examples are lopsided and bias. Buddhist and taoist funerals running for days bother you because of noise, but Christian funerals singing loudly as a congregation aren’t noise to you? Haven’t you seen and heard malay weddings? Thaipusam? Every thing heard can either be noise or music, so how can you conclude what is noise or music to the ears by majority of Singaporeans? And you therefore accused the authorities for being lenient to one and not the other? Until such time that burning incense papers is banned by law, we will continue to burn without offense. What if someone argues that all Sikhs must wear proper helmets when on bike?
Rony Tan’s case is different. Nobody is arguing that one cannot make mistake, or that we should not forgive and forget. The real argument or discontent is that as one makes mistakes, one pays for it. Now that he has crossed the boundary, even DPM said so, he must pay for it and be punished by the system.
This fiasco looks likely to have been mishandled by those in charge in the first place. As a result, it puts itself in a serious dilemma. Especially when election might be around the corner, this case will feature as a hot topic which is hard for PAP to defend. Any opposition focusing on this topic during election risks being charged in court for sure.
1. Let Rony Tan free and the authorities will be pressured to accord the same treatment to those bloggers pending investigation even though they may have crossed some legal boundaries. Creating strong precedence for others to be more adventurous on religious rhetorics both online and in person. When charged, lawyers will bring these precedence up in defence forcing the hands of the judges.
2. Arrest Rony Tan now and the authorities would have admitted they mishandled the case only to arrest him later after public outcry (i.e. succumbing to public pressure). If this happens, they must also deal with another avalanche of complaints from the pro-Rony public and neutrals. Which again is very unhealthy in election time.
Where do we go from here? The only solution in my opinion, is that Rony Tan (either by choice or by force) resigns and ban himself from preaching.
@ Roy Chan
Good rationalisation
imo rony tan’s apology or even if he was arrested resolved nothing.
The issue is his own misperception of other religion. be it rites,chants or ceremonial rituals. He does not understand y other religion practices them yet chooses to make a mockery of them.
If we censure him, it only mean he is punished under Sedition Act and force to apologise. He remain biased and prejudiced. wat’s the point?
So,imo, whether he is jailed or not, repentant or not is not the issue. Educating believers of various faith on rationale behind other seemingly strange religion practices are more important. i am not talking abt acceptance or “religion tolerance”(a word frequently abused) but understanding and knowing the why behind some practices.
Remember rony tan poke fun at buddhism or taoism becoz he is ignorant but his church ppl also laugh along. no one stands up to the pastor and said anything. why? becoz they are also ignorant and agreed with him.
Everything starts with misconception so juz cleared the misconception.i agreed with our country’s other religion leaders proposal that enhancing interaction(not forced assimilation) between all faith and beliefs is the long term solution.
ISD, police can punish any individual and cowed them into submission to the law. however, it still doesn’t solve anything. well, it is juz my opinion.
Frankly, the Rony Tan incident is a side show from the dispensing of justice concerning religious matters.
We should not be surprised at the government’s reaction. It really sums up their philosophy. The one who pays the most taxes gets the ear of the government. Period.
Come on don’t BS us we all know that evangelical Christianity is all bullshit.
All about making money and getting fame , nothing to do with the good book.
And we know that they are trying to take over ALL other independent churches. They took over mine and I promptly left faster than you can smell BS.
They support Israel UNQUESTIONINGLY.
I got news for you Mr. fakeass Tan
Bollox to you, regular Christians will not touch ECs with a 10 foot pole and we CERTAINLY want NOTHING to do with Israel.
Spot On,
Ur comments greatly reflect ur immaturity and skeptical point of view. Rev SMY’s saga SHOULD never be compared to Pastor Rony Tan. Rev SMY never once did bring in Buddhism ideas into the picture during his saga. However, Pastor Rony Tan actually used Christianity ideas to ridicule other religions. That is the reason why Christianity ideas were greatly debated. I truly believed that TR is impartial.
Stop digging at the wrong holes!
@antipolitics
You are barking at the wrong tree and your having a wrong opinion here. The Israelis are not Christians. They practised Judaism, and their Torah is the orginal book from which the Od Testament of the Bible is derived. There is no element of evangelism in their religion.
You should not go round making irrelevant comments and show your ignorance to others. Thank you.
@abcdef
Let others decide whether I am the one displaying immaturity of thought and ideas, and it is YOU who is the immatured one. If you cannot understand fully what others are writing, you re-read them and have them digested and understood before you start making any comments.
Self-conceit will not help you understand fully the points others are making and what you think you know is nothing but a misplace misconception.
mtp on Thu, 11th Feb 2010 3:24 pm
I agree with you that you are unlikely to change the way of a man who is fixed in his ways. No amount of jail sentences, lim kopi sessions, and threats and intimidations will change his way. It will at best temporary suppress what he believe he must do. Thoughts become action. Action becomes habit. Habit becomes what you are.
Other than reprogramming the person’s brain, which the technology has yet to exist, or giving the chap a death sentence, as long as he thinks in that line of thought, his action will remain as before.
The solution may be as some suggested here, to minimise his ability to influence others with this line of thought by having him step down.
“People with virtue must speak out;
People who speak are not all virtuous. “
I believe that the arrest of the 3 poly students is a staged event. The arrest was synchronised with the interrogation of Pastor Rony Tan by the ISD to create the impression that the Church was not targeted. The election is around the corner. The govt needs to use this camouflage to minimise the political fallout. This PR ploy is so effective that most people think that the govt is favoring the Church.
@Forgive and Forget on Wed, 10th Feb 2010 3:36 pm
/// …………, the pastor has apologized and the Buddhist leaders have accepted it. ……………. Please let the matter rest and move on. Seeking revenge for the wrongdoer is not the best solution. ///
I just got into this thread and find the above post worthy of commenting:
Forgiveness like compassion is a virtue that has to be applied wisely and not dished out like meaningless commodity. Forgiving has no value whenever a person transgresses and everybody else clamour to forgive – in the name of love, magnanimity, God, etc.
Nobody else can forgive except the one who has been victimised, violated, ridiculed, harmed, hurt, raped, lied to and so forth. How a 3rd party or God can forgive is beyond my understanding. Let’s say I ridiculed Ah Kow. Ah Seng forgives me for my indiscretion. Does it sound right?
Don’t get me wrong. I am not saying there should not be forgiveness. Forgiveness can only be given by the affected party. The transgressor should seek forgiveness directly then there is real remorse towards the affected party. If I go to a private corner and ask God to forgive me, I am a coward.
I reckon that it is easier to ask God for forgiveness than to ask the affected person. Because of our guilt and embarrassment, we dare not face the party whom we have wronged.
In applying spiritual values like compassion, forgiveness, generosity and so forth, always do so with wisdom, not mechanically or automatically because it is written in some scriptures.
On ‘forgetting’, I think it can be disastrous. What is forgotten can be repeated! The call for forgetting is like ‘it didn’t happen’. Why then is there a memorial for the victims of the Rape of Nanking?
Lastly, it is not right to say ‘seeking revenge for the wrong-doer’. Correctly discerned, most commentators are actually seeking JUSTICE and FAIR treatment. The title of the thread is ‘…. perceived double standard …” not revenge!