Chee Soon Juan to go on U.S. talk shows asking Obama to address human rights abuse in Singapore
November 10th, 2009 | 
Author: From our Correspondent
A week after MM Lee Kuan Yew was interviewed on the U.S. Talk Show – the Charlie Rose Show and was given a rare meeting with U.S. President Barack Obama at the White House, Singapore opposition leader Dr Chee Soon Juan will go on a series of radio shows in America.
The interviews come on the eve of President Barack Obama’s visit to Singapore for the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) meeting from 12-14 Nov 09.
Among the interviews will be one with Mr Ron Reagan on Air America and veteran talk show host Lionel Lipshitz on The Lionel Show.
In an earlier interview with Talk Radio News Service Bureau Chief Ellen Ratner, Dr Chee spoke about the repressive laws put in place by the Singapore government to curtail the political rights of citizens such as the recent public order law passed which ban even peaceful solo protest.
He also urged Mr Obama to take note of the human rights abuses in Singapore and call on America’s political and business leaders to stop collaboration with the Singapore government unless it improves on its human rights record.
Last week, Singapore Law Minister Shanmugan spent 3 days trying to convince a skeptical American audience from the New York State Bar Association that Singapore is a country of law and that its situation is “unique”.
Dr Chee’s personal testimony of the human rights abuses and political persecution he had suffered at the hands of the ruling party is likely to win him much sympathy from the American public and further damage the reputation of the Singapore government.
Though the ruling party is able to maintain a tight grip over the local media, it has little or no influence over the American press.
While President Obama is unlikely to heed Dr Chee’s call to exert pressure on the Singapore government to liberalize the political landscape, the negative publicity generated worldwide will nevertheless make the regime feel uncomfortable.
Being a globalized city heavily dependent on trade, Singapore cannot afford to allow its international branding to be tarnished by charges of political repression.
In stark contrast, Hong Kong, despite having only limited self-rule under Communist China, seldom encounter such negative publicity about its political system.
Even China is becoming more conscious of its international image. Chinese President Hu Jintao recently gave a pledge to the western media that they would be allowed to report freely on events in China.
In an increasingly inter-connected world where barriers between states are breaking down fast by the internet, the Singapore government is finding it harder to keep the facade of itself being a “democracy” for long.
U.S. NGO Freedom House wrote in its 2009 report that Singapore is not an “electoral democracy which would have a detrimental impact on the impression the Americans have on Singapore.
While Dr Chee was never a MP, his influence on Singapore politics will extend far beyond Singapore’s shores.
The Singapore government should realize that its tried and tested methods of stifling political dissent through repressive measures will eventually backfire on them and damage their own credibility which no amount of PR exercise will reverse.
From now onwards, it has to be especially vigilant to its actions which may give others free ammunitions to shoot at it.
Singapore “exceptionalism” is no excuse for its oppression. The Singapore government may be able to deceive its own people, but not freedom-loving souls from the rest of the free world.
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110 Responses to “Chee Soon Juan to go on U.S. talk shows asking Obama to address human rights abuse in Singapore”
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Has CSJ already left Singapore? If not, would the authorities stop him from leaving?
It seems Chee Soon Juan is willing to disrupt the economy so that he can have his beef with the PAP. So, what’s he going to ask the US to do? Impose economic sanctions? Pull out the MNCs? Stop trading with Singapore?
Not that the US will listen to him, but is this the meaning of a loyal opposition? Who really suffers more?
He is all about looking good to the outside world.
goodness gracious….he is a constant embarrassment to Singaporeans. he does not speak for the majority. can we eject this annoying insect to America, since he thinks that their brand of government is better. wtf don’t like it here but live here….and irritate us by going public in a foreign land… bo cheng! give the whole world a skewed impression that we are like him… we just don’t need this
Chee Soon Juan is doing good for singapore
to let the world know more about the sing government
@G17 on Tue, 10th Nov 2009 10:39 am
“He is all about looking good to the outside world.”
I am not so sure whether his forays overseas are merely to make himself look good to the outside world. Previously, I suppose wooing the foreigners might bring his party some additional fundings, but the legal restrictions on foreign donation to political parties would have put paid to that, and rightly so.
I feel that this current media jaunt in the US is just another indication of his (and his party’s) inability to convince Singaporeans of his business case. Although I don’t think so, some Singaporeans perceive him as a foreign stooge. This round on the US radiowaves merely serves to reinforce this impression and further skepticism about his (and his party’s) underlying intents.
@ verbatim on Tue, 10th Nov 2009 11:18 am
You sounds like a highly strung irated parrot rattled in a cage. Calm down. It is neither good for your heart nor your blood pressure.
“I am not so sure whether his forays overseas are merely to make himself look good to the outside world. ”
FYI, the same PAP has been doing similar things trying to win foreigner support for the party. They even go to the point of spending hundred of millions and millions of dollars of tax-money to host international forum and events join to convince that PAP is a fair and credible party. The latest been inviting 300 USA lawyers to lecture by SHAM that PAP gov has rule of law. The USA lawyers have now gone back laughing their way to eternity by the shadow argument of the expensive kangaroos.
Dr Chee didn’t spend any tax-money to deliver a host show . Some more interview by son of Ronald Reagan, the famous and respected ex-president of USA !
Why is our old fart using tax-money in his personal capacity to glorify himself in the world only to be ripped apart by Charlie Rose ?
Look at how the old fart divert the attention of his self-serving interest and put it nobly as though it is for the public, only to be ripped apart by the skeptical Charlie Rose. http://www.pressrun.net/weblog/2009/10/singapore-too-authoritative-charlie-rose-asked-lee-kuan-yew.html
“Charlie Rose: So the end justifies the means whatever it might be?
MM Lee: No. The ends were laudable. Everybody wants the same ends. Everybody wants good education and good health.
Charlie Rose: A good life and their children to do better than they did.
MM Lee: The means — I had the consent and support of the population. If they opposed me and they did not cooperate, it wouldn’t have worked.
Charlie Rose: You were in control of everything.
MM Lee: No.
Charlie Rose: Yes you were, you know that. “
BryanT on Tue, 10th Nov 2009 11:38 am
Milo is a nutritious drink. I drink too to keep healthy!
Did you drank “OLIM” instead – manufactured by Pappies Disinfectant Limited causing YOU so much brain damage that your post betrays of increasing irascible thoughts as each line advances
Dr. Chee craves the limelight. He loves to appear in head line.
Being able to be invited to the US he must surely be something to reckon with.
Just wonder how things will pan out.
Will he be brand as a traitor of Singapore?
I don’t think so, he did not sell any of our country secrets to another country has he.
A politician of Singapore in the world stage is rare and he is remarkable to have reach far and wide.
What he is doing, will it affect Singapore economical relationship with others?
Nah, I don’t think so.
Usually in the past the battle always ended with Chee being the loser, let’s see how thing goes this time round.
Lets hope in the end something positive evolves from this saga.
GO DOCTOR CHEE !!!
The Chee, when he sells koyok along Orchard Road, nobody pays a damn to him or even buys his book.
He confesses to putting his hand in the kitty but says it’s only a paltry sum.
Lost his government job (for biting the hand that feeds him), jobless and nothing to lose, now is sponsored by certain dark elements (at home & abroad) to do Singapore in (i.e. the PAP government). He really feels great running the government & Singapore down in the eyes of the world to settle his personal score.
How sick can the man be?
Chee was declared bankrupt in 2006.
A bankrupt cant leave the nation.
Cant leave the nation = no talk show
Why all the bullshit?
“Dr. Chee craves the limelight. He loves to appear in head line.
Being able to be invited to the US he must surely be something to reckon with.”
If Dr Chee does not show his face and attention, how the world going to know our kangaroos are desperate and beyond hope ? How the world going to help Singapore get rid of dictatorship ? If Singaporean can help themselves, we wouldn’t be in this state. If people capable of doing something matching Dr Chee or even better than Dr Chee, we wouldn’t be in this state.
“Will he be brand as a traitor of Singapore?”
If Dr Chee is a traitor, then Sun Yat Sen must be the China’s greatest traitor since he enlisted foreigner assistance to rid the corrupted Qing dynasty. PAP is also a traitor for selling national assets like Singapore electricity plant to foreign countries to increase the gambling fund for HoJinx. Who is the lesser traitor ?
Traitor is one of the distinguished legacy of the old fart and his regime. History will ensure that.
“He also urged Mr Obama to take note of the human rights abuses in Singapore and call on America’s political and business leaders to stop collaboration with the Singapore government unless it improves on its human rights record.”
Taking the whole nation hostage to fufil one’s wanton political desire…good job…
“Look at how the old fart divert the attention of his self-serving interest and put it nobly as though it is for the public, only to be ripped apart by the skeptical Charlie Rose. http://www.pressrun.net/weblog/2009/10/singapore-too-authoritative-charlie-rose-asked-lee-kuan-yew.html”
FYI Exposer, this is the 3rd time Charlie Rose invited LKY to his show. For those who has seen the entire show will know that CR is clearly an admirer of LKY. Even so, it’s not ground shattering to have differing views on policies. It’s imbecilic, ignorant and opportunistic to quote out of context in this case. Such tactics are made famous by SDP Chee. One wonder why SDP never gets any support apart from a bunch of imbeciles.
“Cant leave the nation = no talk show
Why all the bullshit?”
You cannot think out of the box ? Talking need to show appearance mah ? You talking to your friend over the phone need to show appearance or not ?
“The Chee, when he sells koyok along Orchard Road, nobody pays a damn to him or even buys his book.
He confesses to putting his hand in the kitty but says it’s only a paltry sum.”
If Chee is worst, I can’t imagine how you describe old fart and his regime. Losing unsound billions ,and still tell you that still have a lot of billions to gamble. They forget to tell you that you be footing the bill ! Give themselves millons with more than 7 months perks ? Give me a break. Where is your sense of proportion ?
Kelvin Leong on Tue, 10th Nov 2009 12:28 pm
Are you a blind mentally-deranged doctor performing diagnostics on a healthy person and pronounced him “sick”?
Exposer you are damn right in your comments.
It is unfortunate that Dr Chee has tarnished and probably damaged the cause of the opposition in Singapore with his “stupid” behaviour. However, his clamour for support from foreigners (the US matters) to sympathise the plight of lack of democracy here must be given some credit, although I must say a lot of Singaporeans do not agree with the way situations in Singapore are distorted and contorted by him. We probably agree with the ends (we share the same goal of hoping that our republic will rech political maturity with a more representative system of government) but we would not agree with the means that he is employing.
In fact, on closer analysis of Dr Chee’s behaviour since he came into the political limelight it appears that he may have been planted into the opposition political arena to discredit the conviction that the presence of well educated and qualified candidates in opposition could provide cannon feeder to replace PAP candidates. This has been LKY’s philosophy all along, to pre-empt before it happens.
Well,it would be no harm if he merely expounds the truths.
Man,is still a human and human makes msitakes.
We have to be open-minded and whether this trip is gonna bear forth any good is ultimately a matter of opinions and perception.
All said,i hope that Dr Chee remember to do the things he needs to do in the best interests of his family,friends and fellow countrymen…it’s an uphill task few of us would venture or like to undertake.
Let’s be compassionate and passionate and give the man that
“second chance” we ourselves long for?
You guys can argue all you want. Time will tell whether his method is effective or not. In my opinion, there is no point arguing over it.
For those who are so against what he is doing, I wish you all the best, that your life will be smooth and nothing would go wrong. Until then, you will continue to support the PAP regime and think Chee Soon Juan is an idiot.
If things go wrong with your life, don’t ever speak ill of Singapore’ government because you need to practice what you preach ie. be a loyal Singaporean and don’t air your dirty laundry to other countries, keep it to yourself, you have yourself to be blame, you asked for it, etc.
Do you guys understand me? If not I pity you and you are not matured enough to even come on board this forum. I hope GOD will forgive you for all the bad things you said about Chee Soon Juan.
Come on God’s Warrior we are not denigrding Dr Chee. We are only saying he should not distort facts and whether by design or inadvertently in the process damage the cause of the opposition in Singapore politics. The man who is doing and giving the opposition a more respectable and creditable face in Singapore is Low Thia Khiang, and most of us would agree with the way he is conducting himself – with political candour and propriety. Chiam See Tong had become irrelevant and Dr Chee inconsequential.
Most of us believe Low Thia Khiang will emerge to be THE face of opposition politics in Singapore in the very near future. And perhaps with more nurturing and probably after the passing of the old man (inevitable) his Workers’ Party would undoubtedly be a real force to be reackoned with when more well educated and qualitified candidates join their fold.
But I cannot say the same of Dr Chee unfortunately.
//lame post
//verbatim
//BryanT
//Kelvin Leong
What Chee is doing is typical of a politician and expected of him. There is no reason why he should be denied of the opportunity to talk about Singapore. If the PAP can do it, why not the opposition. Similarly, the PAP demand the right to meet opposition leaders when travelling overseas; but this is denied to foreign politicians visiting Singapore. The world is bigger than Singapore.
Good move by Dr Chee.
Gungho!
I wonder if he is less likely to get into trouble in the mighty democracy of USA where views are tolerated?
Dr Chee,
i wonder do the americans know that many singaporeans could not vote because of this system called GRC and Walkover?
Ask the americans what they feel about this kind of system.
Such a tiny island with so small population still need walkover?
Who then knows who those who were denied voting would have voted for?
Who in singapore knows if ALL voting-age citizens get to just simply cast their vote, which party would have lost ? which party would have won? How might the votes be spread differently?
Tell them there is no shortage of a team of leaders for the Opposition better if not the same calibre as the incumbent. That the only problem is these do not join the opposition.
Tell them what they feel about the Losses and if there is need for more transparency in their opinion.
Ask them what they feel about 1 party system.
Well, what a good move by Dr Chee. If you play Chess you should know its CHECKMATE time soon for LKY and the PAPies
Kudos to our future PM of Singapore
Your brilliance and charisma is going to do us Singaporeans proud
Go for the jugular Dr Chee
The time is right now
All of us will be there with you
In America there is probably no present case of gerrymandering in the way it is often being used here by the PAP government to gain political voting advantage. However, in the past they did happen in American politics (that’s where the term was imported from : Massachusetts in 1812 while under governor E. Gerry).
That’s politics (morality has never been a platform when waging political wars). It has never been a level playing field all along, and when situation appears that it may soon become so, new shemes and adjustments are made to ensure that the political advantage remains with the incumbent party in office.
It follows that there are only 2 ways for aspiring political parties to achieve their goal : Either by resorting to trickery and default (as was used by LKY when he subverted the PAP base), Or when the electorate has reached a certain level of political consciousness to understand and acquiesce to the entry of appropriate checks and balances for the political system (this would be the most likely scenerio here and would probably be post LKY era).
imo chee is a waste of time
hahaha, csj is such an epic loser.
even the bumbling ling how doong managed to get elected, yet his fellow sdp towkay still cannot.
“FYI Exposer, this is the 3rd time Charlie Rose invited LKY to his show. For those who has seen the entire show will know that CR is clearly an admirer of LKY. Even so, it’s not ground shattering to have differing views on policies. It’s imbecilic, ignorant and opportunistic to quote out of context in this case.”
Who is the imbecilic, ignorant and opportunistic ? You throw hundred of billions into US economy FOC, and not helping local enough. And yet you only get interview by CR, and get a pathetic award ? There is nothing to quote out of context. FYI, Charlie Rose’s style has always been this way, Direct, honest, and skeptical, only those imbecilic, ignorant and opportunistic like you don’t know that.
I still think we need a benevolent dictator. Freedom is too scary if you read TR. Can somebody help portray nice things we can get from freedom? I can only see bad-mouthing here so far… Tell me why Dr Chee is good. What are the specific plans he has that can ensure the growth of Singapore? What he will do to make sure Singapore is the best tiny state in the world in terms of economic developement, etc? How is he going to open up our media so as to ensure freedom to the public? How much resources is he going to use to ensure that the freedom don’t go out of hand? (imagine strikes are allowed in Singapore) Tell me how Singapore can fund the so called freedom he had envisage for us. Tell me what kind of people he will be recruiting to form our government. What methods is he using to ensure the selected ones are good? blah blah blah… Dun make the PAP bad people. Make the opposition good people should be the way. If PAP is bad, how can I be sure that the alternative isn’t worse? We know the push factors, we need the pull factors. Yes, I am pro PAP as of now.
“In fact, on closer analysis of Dr Chee’s behaviour since he came into the political limelight it appears that he may have been planted into the opposition political arena to discredit the conviction that the presence of well educated and qualified candidates in opposition could provide cannon feeder to replace PAP candidates. This has been LKY’s philosophy all along, to pre-empt before it happens.”
Strange. You put closer analysis on Chee but not closer analysis on rest of opp party. As much as some say Chee is a mole for PAP, the same can be said of docile Opp party which play to the tune of PAP. By been compliant opp party, didn’t it mean too that there is nothing wrong with PAP and their manipulation of election and governance ? So who is right and who is wrong ?
Let me ask you a simple question. Will you ever sacrifice your family, your reputation your son and daughter’s future for been a mole/informer of PAP’s corrupted regime ? You will sacrifice yourself for a job as a mole/family but you will never implicate your family if it is not a cause worth doing and out of heart. Am I right to say this ? Can you tell me in history in the world which man sacrifice both himself, his family and his friends just to become mole job of certain party ? Even the Hong Kong’s exaggerated movie won’t portray such extreme, let’s alone reality.
“It is unfortunate that Dr Chee has tarnished and probably damaged the cause of the opposition in Singapore with his “stupid” behaviour. ”
I don’t know how you qualify the word “stupid”. Who is the stupid person ? A person that laughing at someone willing to sacrifice himself to make change for Singapore or someone that can only laugh at himself whenever government implements policies at the expense of citizens. Pick your choice.
Oh dear! Janet now decides he wasnts to be a guy, finally realises Bryan was better. Hahahaha……
“I still think we need a benevolent dictator.”
There is no such thing as benevolent dictator. For every cent he give, he expect more than ten times as much because he already get the absolute power, and we also experience the corruption of absolute power now.
“Tell me why Dr Chee is good. What are the specific plans he has that can ensure the growth of Singapore?”
Unless you yourself agree that Singapore current model is the right model of growth for the future. Now let me ask too what is your thought of ensuring the growth of Singapore ?
If you asking so many how , why not ask a simple question. Will there be democracy better than current situation in Singapore if opp party run the country ? If so, the rest of your question can be answered.
No one says that Chee need to be the PM or minister or whatever, let the people decide through democracy. Now, do you even get to decide anything in current corrupted Leegime ?
Victor Lim on Tue, 10th Nov 2009 3:18 pm
Why don’t you ask Barack Obama these questions BEFORE he became elected and choose his Cabinet members and advisors?
“If PAP is bad, how can I be sure that the alternative isn’t worse? We know the push factors, we need the pull factors. Yes, I am pro PAP as of now.”
Can I say you are stupid and lack common sense by asking such stupid question ?
Maybe Mr Chee wants Obama to be elected President of Singapore too.
Relax, be glad that this US president is a whimp.
Now if it was McCain or Bush Jnr, we might see 7th fleet squatting in our harbour.
@CSJ?
Well,do you consider Mr Obama a gem of a FT?
if so,i don’t see why not…we need fair competition
and talents,don’t we?..else,we become a dinosaur…
Exposer, democracy alone cannot guaranttee a better governance. The correct conditions have to be in place. Singapore, as a small state, depends on speed for survival. Skeptical with the idea of full democracy in Singapore. While I concede that I may be proved wrong some day, I sincerely hope that it would not be in my lifetime. As per Ian Bremmer’s J-curve, something very very nasty have to happen before and during that revolution. With so little or no resources, I doubt we can survive that. I doubt we can reach the tail of the curve.
Amonymous, you may wish to find out more by reading Obama’s biography or do some research on his presidential campaign.
This shall be my last post. Hahas.
Have a great day!
@Victor Lim on Tue, 10th Nov 2009 4:15 pm
Good to see you running away from the truth. No President nor Prime Minister can decide on specific concrete micro decisions BEFORE he select his cabinet and advisors.
A blurred sotong would always put the cart before the horse and expecting to win the race.
Not extremely intelligent right? Or was that post a silly hoax self-betrayed of deception needing sudden disappearance of its author in a hurry of shame?
“Exposer, democracy alone cannot guaranttee a better governance. The correct conditions have to be in place.”
please, no person, condition and system can guarantee anything. It is the people running the show that strive to make thing better. If the old fart been autocratic outlive its usefulness because his system only have generally have yes-man to do his bidding, it means it is time for democracy to give the voice back to the people. Let’s the people decide. We don’t need guarantee because no one, not even the old fart and Obama, can guarantee anything.
Victor Lim ,
you should read http://trulysingapore.wordpress.com/ because the author has wonderfully debunk the kind of nonsensical statement you make like MIW.
If you really want to be smart,read every single post in that blog, and I can guarantee (yes, this I can guarantee you unless you are beyond stupidity) that you be a lot smarter and not give narrow-minded answer and regurgitate the rubbish of the establishment. It is said that if you want to be smart, you have to read the smart resource written by smart and wise people, http://trulysingapore.wordpress.com is the blog you looking for.
How about being objective.
No country in the world has excessive barriers to political entry that singapore has. But at the same time, very few countries in the world has achieved so much, in terms of public housing, healthcare, education, economic growth and stability that singapore has.
PAP says, that it needs the political situation that it has engineered to achieve the abovementioned goals. Chee soon juan says, you need political freedom no matter wad. Others say, that all the objectives can be achieved with political freedom.
The question is, are we gonna take the risk? PAP says, that irresponsible political freedom directly leads to turmoil. Others say no. But are we gonna take the risk of going into turmoil to see whether its really the case? After all the hard work that our forefathers have put in. Forget the PAP, think about your family, and your kids.
Are you very sure that having multiple political parties jostling for power every 4 years, is gonna make singapore a more vibrant place? One only need to look around and see that lobby groups and interest-based politics are a direct result of multiple parties.
But having said all that, the day PAP loses its moral authority, and is unable to deliver its objectives, and bcomes a worser regime than multiple parties, then there is no need to worry. Because it will be voted out. Rgdless of electional maneouvring no 1 can manipulate human sentiments. But such a day, is not here yet. Not by a long throw. So please do sumthg productive with your lives, and allow me to do sumthg productive wif my life, than to comment on your absolutely silly comments.
PS: I’m not a political person, i dun belong to any party, i respect chiam see tong and JBJ. But i just cannot accept idiots like those who commented before me, saying things just for the sake of saying it.
lee kuan yew regime law:
compassion is illegal – remember the catholic social activists, professionals and students detain without trial by the ISD under operation spectrum?
laughter is illegal – remember LHL threatening Mr Brown?
life is illegal – poor and elderly singaporeans please die to make space for elites and foreigners, get out of pappies’ elite uncaring faces
Have a good read. I think it will provide an alternate view to this post. And then you the reader can decide for yourself. Always look on both sides of the coin before you decide.
http://funnyspideystories.blogspot.com/2009/11/what-would-you-do.html
//Victor Lim
There are other democractic countries that are smaller in size and but with a bigger population than Singapore. And yet they are far more successful than Singapore; and the PAP hardly ever mention these countries. And they do not rely on migrants to sustain their economies. Examples:
The kingdom of Denmark – excluding the Faroe Islands and Greenland – 43,098 km2. Population – 5,511,451 (2009)
Finland – 338,424 km2. Population – 5,348,357 (2009 estimate)
Sweden – 449,964 km2. Population – 9,263,872 (2009 census)
Can Victor King be more specific as to who are the idiots he was refering to ? From his riposte it looks like he has been basking and talking from an ivory tower, having tasted all the fresh meat showered by the government. He will never know what stale bread tastes like. But yet there are some out there who have been unfortunate victims of unjust “persecution” by the ruling regime. Trust me, there are many out there, including high profile people like ex-ISD director Yoong Siew Wah, ex-Solicitor General Francis Seow, ex-President Devan Nair, and many more, not forgeting ex-CAD director Glenn Knight.
Of all the aforesaid mentioned, Glenn Knight is the proverbial “born loser” type. Catapulted into high office as a top notch commercial crime buster with the commission to investigate anyone (including family members of the Lee Family) he was a commanding figure. Unfortunately succumbing to his innocent views of his master he literally took that commission as a carte blanche and did the inevitable.
Most people in Singapore would have read about him being incarcerated on 2 seperate occassions (in succession) for 2 counts of impropriety. But few actually knew the circumstances or the real and bigger picture behind this facade. He was on the trail of initiating investigations on one member of the Lee Family arising out of a kick back being received in some failed bank takeover transaction in Japan, assigning 2 special investigators for the job. And before you know it, he suddenly found himself faced with a charged of cheating !
The initial fray was to charge him for cheating Ng Ser Miang in a Batam property project (of which he was a invited director) but which was eventually dropped as no concrete evidence could be produced in court. Instead he was charged of defrauding the government of a $5,000 credit in a loan in which he had taken to finance his purchase of a Subaru Legacy. In the eyes of the law he was already a guilty man for a crime which they had not yet determined until a convenient tool could be used as evidence. What was most obnoxious was that if Glenn Knight was guilty of “deceiving” his lenders then hundreds of other purchasers of Subaru vehicles then would have been similarly guilty as well. Nissan had just taken over control of Subaru Motors and as a result, in order not to compete with its Nissan counterparts here by a price reduction strategy, the motor company had used a $5,000 credit note policy which would be returned to purchaser subsequent to completion of their purchase (it was much like the cash-rebate or cash-back policy currently practised by some motor comapanies). He was convicted based on a policy of a third party of which he had no involvement in the making of it (that is how the laws here are interpreted). His 2 special investigators were dismissed from the service and everything was pulled under the rug. Forgotten.
So Mr. Victor King you may like to generalise saying idiots like us but I do think the idiot should be you. In any case, I take comfort to know that you have already, in fact, stated that you are one by your own inference in that “…idiots like those who commented before me…” Welcome to the idiots club.
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Grace! remember The Policy “STOP AT TWO” slaughter 1/2 milliom of our past generation (our brother & sister)those innocent & defenceless life. LKY must pay for his Sin.
@Janet-BryanT on Tue, 10th Nov 2009 3:29 pm
At last, after all these years, I have found my long lost twin sister,… errrr…. I mean twin brother…. errrr I mean twin-transsexual.
Ermmm isn’t it because we fear the day the PAP truly becomes corrupt, thats why we are advocating for multiple parties? With one single party at the helm of decision making, don’t kid yourself that you can vote them out. …. not too mention such a government will probably sent the Gurkhas to shoot any protesters on sight.
Victor King on Tue, 10th Nov 2009 5:13 pm
How about being objective.
Yes, of course! The past and present CANNOT SUSTAIN THE FUTURE!
Faced up with OBJECTIVE truth.
wahhh….so many PAP cyber warriors….scareddddddd…tremmmmbbbbblllinggg….
“But at the same time, very few countries in the world has achieved so much, in terms of public housing, healthcare, education, economic growth and stability that singapore has.”
public housing – public housing prices have reached the highest in the history of singapore and not in sync with wages.
healthcare – not much benefits in singapore
economic growth – record inflation, recession plus massive losses by temasek holdings and gic?
stability – like getting stuck with an incompetent and corrupt government which actively suppresses alternative political parties?
MORAL OF THE STORY: DO NOT SUPPORT PAP. VOTE OPPOSITION.
@Victor King on Tue, 10th Nov 2009 5:13 pm
How about being objective.
Yes, of course! The past and present CANNOT SUSTAIN THE FUTURE.
That is why we are caught in a triumvirate crushing crunch of population, housing,and economic dilemma all AT THE SAME TIME. And the policy makers LOST DIRECTION in crisis responding only by the last option available – IN COMPLETE DENIAL OF TRUTH OF CIRCUMSTANCES.
That is the OBJECTIVE TRUTH.
We need to change. Get fresh ideas because the incumbent is VERY TIRED of any change to productive outcome.
Correction to my earlier post:
//Victor Lim
There are other democractic countries that are bigger in size and population than Singapore similarly lacking in natural resources. And yet they are far more successful than Singapore; and the PAP hardly ever mention these countries. And they do not rely on migrants to sustain their economies. Examples:
The kingdom of Denmark – excluding the Faroe Islands and Greenland – 43,098 km2. Population – 5,511,451 (2009)
Finland – 338,424 km2. Population – 5,348,357 (2009 estimate)
Sweden – 449,964 km2. Population – 9,263,872 (2009 census)
@x12831 i really can’t believe you. did you just say they are smaller than singapore? singapore’s area is 700km2. that’s 0.2% of sweden my friend. and that also means 50000% greater population density in singapore.
@grace i’m disappointed in you. didn’t secondary school teach you the most basic of critical thinking? logical fallacy man, hasty generalization. as much as you may hate PAP, they’re still right that actually listening during class is good for you. please don’t tempt me with ad hominem.
Doctor Chee’s actions bear an air of desperation. It just seems as though all the persecution has finally taken its toll on the poor guy.
Sure, you may say he has done damage not just to the government, but possibly to those opposing them, especially his party, but can you blame him? He has been trialed, jailed, bankrupted.. in fact they only just stopped short of raping him. So give the man a break.
All the damage he has done and will do from this moment on cannot be compared to what has already happened. Some of us don’t see it, some of us do. If you don’t see it, look closer and pay more attention. Nobody’s saying that the pap never did anything good for us. We’re just saying that along the way, they stirred in some bullshit and now here are.
The fact that Doctor Chee’s appearing so desperate tells only of his adoration for his nation, his fellow citizens, and maybe a little bit of that tasty attention that comes with it. Again, can you blame the man? He’s only being human.
Is there room for improvement? Certainly. Is Doctor Chee the man to provide it? For the life of me, i don’t know. But i do know that he’s trying, something almost none of us are doing.
@x12831 no, changing one word doesn’t make your statement right. a larger landmass, by its very right, equates to natural resources. agriculture, timber, hydropower, aeropower.. did you think trees grow in the sea?
@OverAchiever dude, compare with other countries. cost of housing in a country with similar size.
healthcare, 80% subsidy. unless of course you’re those people who refuse government aid and go to private hospitals, but that’s your problem.
economic growth, try producing ANY economy when you have absolutely no resources except people, which is also lacking, mind you. oh and prostitution is not an option if you’re wondering. still, quoting post recession is unjustified. think US, being the very cause of it due to all that freedom the people have. japan, DECLINING economy. what’s more, singapore’s the first asian country to step out of the recession no?
stability, you take stability for granted. what if, in school, from pri 1 to pri 4, you go through some lessons, only to have the curriculum completely changed for pri 5 and 6, and then rechanging in sec 2, so you end up learning algebra for 6 years, and no calculus even after A levels. now imagine shaking in fear every night cos your sister/mother/girlfriend/wife/daughter is out after 10pm. imagine not daring to step out of your house after midnight for fear of being mobbed, raped, killed, kidnapped. imagine not even daring to send your kids to a public school cos some deranged kid may just walk in with a machine gun and shoot down everyone. imagine not daring to even look at anyone on the streets for fear of catching the eye of a gang member. in broad daylight. imagine not daring to report any of the above occurances to the police because chances are they are already bought over by the mafias. imagine a serial killer in your neighbourhood who has raped + killed more than 20 people, being released from jail because of “good behaviour” and the lack of a death sentence.
think about it.
@ theotherthinker on Tue, 10th Nov 2009 8:42 pm
Open up your eyes before you start barking nonsense!!!
.x12831 says
…”There are other democractic countries that are bigger in size and population than Singapore similarly lacking in natural resources.”…You DISTORTED IT to claim the poster said..did you just say they are smaller than singapore?
Blind person probably brain dead to be capable of ad hominen attack on others?
Though I do not entirely agree with the methods employed by CSJ, I would say the methods employed by pap is a thousand times worse. All the things that CSJ have done are valid for an opposition politician. I do hope there would be more of such great selfless people in our country.
It would seem to me many people who just keep condemning CSJ while saying nothing about pap are either brainwashed by propaganda or ignorant or choose to be double standard and ignore all the bad things done by their masters.
Singaporeans are educated and a matured lot. They know whether it is worthwhile to support an individual regardless of whether they are the opposition or otherwise.
There are opposition parties who have made progress and have been voted into Parliament.
Dr Chee’s team have been making lots of noises. However, their actiosn so far have not bring abt worthwhile results. What’s the point of trying ot tar the efforts of many Singaporean to make APEC a successful event for S’pore? Who’ll suffer if S’pore reputation is affected? Its us, the general Singaporeans!
I hope Dr Chee’s team will review their strategies… to bring abt positive changes to Singapore w/o making Singaporean suffer in the process.
In 1965, Singapore’s GDP per capita was US$512, Denmark’s was US$2,244 and Finland US$1870.
In 2008, Singapore’s GDP per capita was US$37,600. This is an increase of 73 times. Few other countries grew at this velocity over such a long period. The other country which grew even faster is South Korea, at probably 80 times or more.
According to the CIA factbook, Singapore’s PPP GDP per capita is US$51,500, ahead of Denmark at US$37,100 and Finland at US$36,900.
Dr Chee has sacrificed so much for us Singaporeans. I wish him well. This time I will make it up to the SDP. They will get my vote when they contest Sembawang GRC.
A very brave man indeed.
theotherthinker on Tue, 10th Nov 2009 9:22 pm
You grow wheat on snow and fish from the mountain top? Landmass equates to resources? Denmark got gold, uranium or oil? We got Singapore Petroleum – oil acreage from off-shore exploration – who sold this business away? Finland and Sweden -so easy to get environmental approval for resources mining in such strong environmentally inclined culture and political institutions? Huge landmass so easy to build long distance infrastructure with small population like us (but we are so compact of easy) of infrastructural build. Don’t talk rubbish when you are clueless. If it is so resources rich of landmass, why is Denmark not extracting your imagined fantastic amount of natural resources from Greenland under its jurisdiction?
80% medical subsidy? Only Singapore has this?
Economic growth? Two Economic Restructuring in less than 6 years apart FOR LONG-TERM?? First to step out of recession? Did China and Australia had ANY RECESSION AT ALL??
Stability ? Oh you have that in Iran – the Savak and the vigilantes guarantee you that – dead if you don’t toe the line. You like that in Singapore? Deranged people – none in Singapore? Dare not look at strangers in your eyes, you must be a WELL CONSERVATION ENDANGERED SPECIES PROTECTED FROG IN A LITTLE ABANDONED OR DISUSED WELL. With this amount of insecurity in a globalised world, better locked up your wife, daughter, father and mother in the cupboard before you leave for work every day. Plenty of “uncivilised” foreign workers around from third world countries working and earning a living here – they MIGHT BE VERY DANGEROUS TO YOU but not the rest of us. YOU PARANOIA frog in the well. stay where you are.
Enough, or want some more? Get real, stupid other thinker.
Property prices are at an all-time high, bcos of speculation. The govt provides affordable housing, and what do the people do, they buy cheap and wait for 5 yrs b4 selling at incredulous prices. Or they buy a flat, rent it wholesale and stay with their parents. Who is abusing the system here? The PAP govt?
When healthcare is made affordable and cheap, wad happens? IDIOTS earning 5-figure sums want subsidy for their bloody A-class ward.. Who is to blame? The govt?
Rental flats are meant to help the poor and needy, but we have private property owners, rent out their entire house to foreigners and get a rental flat from HDB thus screwing the entire system. Who is to blame here? The PAP?
Just for your info, i am from a single-parent family, living with my mom and sis in a rental flat. I have no wealth to my name, nor am assured of any. But i knw, with my intelligence and knowledge i can make it in this country. Because of the way the system is created.
For those of you who dare say that this country is autocratic and dictatorial, the fact that you are actually able to say it, and still escape persecution demonstrates the freedom that the country has afforded you. Im not asking you to kowtow to PAP, but pinpoint its mistakes in a objective manner, that will actually help the poor. DO NOT BE A IDIOT like DR CHEE.. Who pushes the cause back by 10 yrs, everytime he says something stupid.
Watch Soft Porn Chanels Full TV Show Online Free
http://tinyurl.com/y8wvhwr
A message for those who embrace PAP and think that multi party system is a waste of time.
Assuming like you say PAP is the best of the best and there is no need to check on them because they will probably be a benevolent dictator at most. Further based on your assumption there is no need to vote in any opposition party. Lets all vote PAP.
The day PAP gets all the votes and no opposition exists in parliament is not far actually. Already they are almost there and those opposition who were voted in are just grand old man waiting to retire.
When that day happen, PAP can do anything. They can tell you that voting is a waste of money and lets do away with it. Voting is just some western fancy, lets get rid of it to save the people from further agony.
With that kind of power, they can do anything under the sun. To avoid further wrangling, they decided why waste time, lets make a Lee dynasty. After all king in the past had made people prosper and its more efficient than democracy.
Do you remember what happen to China and the Empress Dowager? Some day many people in Singapore will die due to your folly.
If PAP make LKY or his son the emperor, Singapore may prosper even faster than you can imagine. They will bring in all the best people in the world (foreign talents) into this country. Those who are born here and not up to grade either you jump into the deep blue sea, migrate or get the hell out of the way, you cannot blame anybody. If you are born deform, too bad, you go to the dungeon and there is a grinding machine to make proper disposal of you, for you are trash in his society. Why can’t they do that, for that is the most efficient way to build a great society?
You who embrace PAP, and condone dictatorship, you are worst than a beast and a murderer of this society. You submit our children and our children’s children to big time humility. That is not democracy.
“What’s the point of trying ot tar the efforts of many Singaporean to make APEC a successful event for S’pore? Who’ll suffer if S’pore reputation is affected? Its us, the general Singaporeans!”
Singapore’s reputation is already fuck up and screw-up. It is already known as money-laudering hub second to Swiss-bank. It already has the deserved reputation of been called a kangaroo court and partisan judiciary system. It is known to us as wayang hub. It is already known as partner in crime working alongside Burma Junta supplying weapon to kill innocent people. It already have the reputation as been the only country in the world to have orchid name after murderous Burma murderer. It already have the reputation been call CAVEAT EMPTOR hub where the statemen who have vest interest in the same FI screw the citizens upside down for Minibomb. It is has the reputation of having papaya with blatant and rampant conflict of interest in the government office holding business position and government role.
So what reputation are you talking about ? The reputation of Singapore already been tainted by the PAP themselves, so stop blaming others.
“For those of you who dare say that this country is autocratic and dictatorial, the fact that you are actually able to say it, and still escape persecution demonstrates the freedom that the country has afforded you.”
What a stupid comment.
citizenofSG,
that is why I say most Singaporeans are stupid and naive people. Educated People which CSM in army will label them as “educated idiot”.
When PAP has achieved 100% absolute power (now I sense it to be 95% power) and achieved Buddha status, why should PAP listen and serve the lesser mortal ? As you stand correct, the PAP will rewrite the law to ensure regime will be there forever, and then they will tell the world and the people “See, our system of government is the best because it stands the test of time !!!!” If they can do it now, they can do it even “cheaper, better and faster” when there is no opp party in Singapore, and all MPs are PAP YES-man.
@G17 on Tue, 10th Nov 2009 11:23 pm
….” The other country which grew even faster is South Korea, at probably 80 times or more….”
Yes, AND SOUTH KOREA HAS A VERY STRONG DOMESTIC ECONOMY BUILT ON GLOBAL MARKET OPPORTUNITIES. Singapore has no external sector of any significance.
…..” According to the CIA factbook, Singapore’s PPP GDP per capita is US$51,500, ahead of Denmark at US$37,100 and Finland at US$36,900….”
Yes but misleading of comparison. The only valid comparison (though not available of statistics) is Gross Nation Product (GNP) because Singapore is very much DOMINATED BY FOREIGN INTEREST, so a lot of GDP wealth do NOT accrue to Singaporeans. Denmark is NOT such an open economy like Singapore and I believe equally Finland is. SO FROM A NATIONAL STANDPOINT OF WEALTH accruing to their people, Danish and Finnish are probably better off than Singaporeans by a long shot.
IF you can’t tell the diff between me and BryanT(whoever he is)…er i not even going to bother..
//G17
funny thing is Finnish and Danish have a lot more circulating in their lives than ours.
They also didn’t have to worry about retirement.
If say 10% of the people stop working to enjoy life, I wonder what happens to the GDP?
increase? or collapse?
That is why the govt is trying to import ft for. to keep their gdp peg salaries up.
We are however in general no richer.
Victor King on Tue, 10th Nov 2009 11:36 pm
Property prices – nobody can buy a HDB and rent it out completely by staying with relative. It is illegal and violators risked financial loss from confiscation. It is a false argument from you.
Autocratic and dictorial issue – you blind or in complete denial of history. You have not read the MIW or even newspaper of past shameful histories? You didn’t see the surveillance cameras in Hong Lim Park.
Well without meaning to be harsh, if you own no assets under your name ( by your own confession unsolicited) and a single parent family, could it be due to the possibility that you are by these posting proving you are NOT EXTREMELY intelligent of awareness and opportunities around you – WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO YOU???
Obama is concentrating all this time and energy on the Human Right issue in Tibet, CSJ’s cause is too small on his radar.
@janetnt
eh.come on,that’s thinking too littleof the capabilities of the Nobel winning President of the USA!He can accomodate more than what you perceive,huh?
Didn’t he recently entertained our MM despite his busy schedule?
Singapore is part of GREATER ASIA..TIBET?,well part of PRC,right?!
TR,
can you bring to awareness of this amazing blog
http://happyangelclub.wordpress.com/page/3/
It is very heart-touching to see people care for the elderly. It has a lot of photos. I think it will do TR good karma, LOL.
“Ageing Singaporeans have committed their entire lives to the country, work and their family. It is high time for them to take a break, away from the hectic lifestyle which they previously toiled for and share their experiences to the younger generation. It is inevitable that the younger generation slogs and strives for excellence in their career and social life. Who then, can the older generation turn to if they are neglected? In order for ageing Singaporeans to live healthily to a ripe old age, they need to participate in social activities, in the process befriending more people. This will allow more vibrancy and liveliness in their lifestyle, reduce the chances of psychological and mental problems and thereby reduce the dependency on the society as well. As such, it is extremely important that friendships are built among fellow ageing Singaporeans to allow them to learn how to adapt to the rapidly changing world.”
This is very touching !!!!!! A talented blind elderly making handicraft !
http://happyangelclub.wordpress.com/2009/06/18/星期二特写之《不平凡的人》-瞎眼婆婆的故事/
Exposer,
I agree that we shd not blame others. While PAP may not have created positive impressions at times, we, the Citizens of Singapore also creates people’s impression of our country. It is not just the political parties.
Does it help if one of us (e.g Dr Chee) keeps bad-mouthing our own country to others?
It just takes a moment to tar one’s reputation (be it an individual or a country)… but a long long time to build a positive reputation. One could do good for 80 years of one’s 85 years of life… but would ppl remember the 80 good years or the 5 not so good years?
Would it not be better if we work together & resolve any conflicts or differences internally, instead of ‘washing our ‘dirty’ laundry’ publicly?
Imagine… if there’s any disagreement within one’s family, what wld be your preferred mode of resolving the conflict? Find a resolution internally within family members only or bring in ‘outsiders’ to resolve our own issues?
It saddens me to see all this ‘public washing of our laundry’… : (
For all we know, the ‘outsiders’ could be just enjoying themselves with the ’show’… & may seemingly side or support the ‘under-dogs’… BUT really wld the ‘outsiders’ have good impression of the ‘under-dogs’? Are the ‘outsiders’ truly help the ‘under-dogs’ for altruistic reasons (ie with no expectations of gaining anything in return)? or Do they have hidden agenda(s) to achieve?
Overall, would it be better for us to involve ‘outsiders’ as we strive to build our desired country?
Let me answer these questions :
1) GDP vs GNP – the data is available on singstat.gov.sg. So, look at the facts first. In 2008 our GDP per capita is S$53K and our GNP per capita is S$50K. There is a small difference and not as significant as you might expect.
2) Finaland and DEnmark do have better retirement benefits, but their taxes are also higher. The total taxes in Finland and Denmark (ie direct plus indirect plus pensions) is 45% of GDP. In Singapore, it’s 19% of GDP. This includes income taxes, GST, alcohol taxes, ERP, road taxes, CPF, betting, COEs etc.
I am not trying to suggest we have a better life than Denmark or Finland, or vice versa. But the fact is that we were at a lower starting point in 1965, and the pace of economic development in Singapore is matched by very few countries, except South Korea.
The problem with many of you here, as i say time and again, is that you like to argue. And with pointless arguments, as self implied, its pointless. Cos you will continue to say that you are right. So many of your points here are just ringing hollow..
PAP enjoyed complete monopoly till JBJ broke it in 1984, i dun think there was outright abuse of the system before 1984, that did any harm to the people..
Im not saying that the PAP is perfect, all im saying is that we have no better alternatives. And its not the fault of the PAP that we have no better alternatives. Do not blame fear, do not blame strangles on freedom. Its simple fact, that IDIOTS like CSJ would rather grab attention than to do good for the people. And also, that of the many of you posting fancy arguments here, if you were really given a choice, you would still vote PAP in.
Welcome to Singapore, we do not want theoretical arguments here, we want practical efforts to help make our lives a better place. You really think complete democracy and explicit political freedom, can make your lives a better place? Ask the citizens of India, Indonesia, and the USA what they think..
The only diff between those citizens and us, is that no matter what happens, no matter what their political affiliations are, they will never diss their own country they way many of you do.. Uniquely Singapore eh?
Your fancy arguments are not gonna win any1 over. Speak objectively, state your problem and state the solution to the problem. That is it. Do away with the bloody attention-grabbing antics. Understand why things are so? And sometimes its not really about 1 person.
The PAP is not completely flawless. It has made mistakes, with the CPF issue, and other issues. But what you fail to realise is that by you distorting facts and following CSJ is not gonna help anybody. Not even yourself.
And i repeat again. Hitler was a dictator. If he caught you spouting such nonsense, your entire family would be incarcerated in his regime. The fact that you are able to call SG a dictatorship and still continue your lame arguments, demonstrates your freedom of speech. Enjoy it, do not abuse it.
And pls give me something objective, instead of your lame, come-and-get-me arguments..
@ G17 on Wed, 11th Nov 2009 10:51 am
“I am not trying to suggest we have a better life than Denmark or Finland, or vice versa. But the fact is that we were at a lower starting point in 1965, and the pace of economic development in Singapore is matched by very few countries, except South Korea.”
Yes, you are both right and wrong. Right on South Korea. When Park Chung Hee.
“…Park is generally credited as playing a pivotal role in the development of South Korea’s economy by shifting its focus to export-oriented industrialization. When he came to power in 1961, South Korean per capita income was only USD 72…”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Chung_Hee
Korea really start industrialisation in the early 1970s and they surged ahead. BUT IF YOU USED THE STATISTIC OF 1961, SOUTH KOREA’S ACHIEVEMENT IS EVEN MORE PHENOMENAL.
Regardless of that – you applied 1965 as the base logically as an indpendent state BUT SINGAPORE was at a low point. Whereas Denmark and Finland already past 20 years post war and STARTED FROM A MUCH HIGHER BASE OF COMPARISON.
If you had looked at the same starting point of poverty ( Singapore 1965, South Korea 1961, Japan, and Germany immediately post-war surrender) BOTH JAPAN AND GERMANY WOULD HAVE ACHIEVED MUCH MUCH MUCH MORE THAN SINGAPORE OR SOUTH KOREA.
It is the low base of Singapore in comparison with the much higher base of Denmark or Finland – that is to some extent DISTORTED THE COMPARISON.
And as you know probably, beyond the economic “take-off” stage from a low base, slower growth can be expected and Denmark and Finland are probably further ahead beyond this “take-off” stage than us. In 10 years’ time, if one compared per capital growth, we might NOT be that spectacular of achievement.
@ lity check on Wed, 11th Nov 2009 10:16 am
…”Overall, would it be better for us to involve ‘outsiders’ as we strive to build our desired country?…”
Baloney cry of oppressors and those seeking to oppress inside the national “family”.?
Mafia rules apply inside and pretend and preaching angels outside so the world look at dissidents as evil of truth?
Singaporeans are educated. They don’t get fooled anymore
Hi Get Real,
I agree with you that Singaporeans are educated. Though some of us may still get fooled at times… esp when we take some risk or give the ‘benefit of doubt’. Over time, I hope the number of ppl fooled will reduce.
I strongly believe that by and large the majority of Singaporeans know what’s good for the country & use appropriate means to achieve the desired outcomes. We can each do our part (in many different roles – business owner, employee, consumer, academic, etc) to contribute to the betterment of our country and its people.
Get Real
My point is that Singapore did start from a lower base and caught up with Finland and Denmark. So why are we belaboring the same simple point? Just because we can find 1 or 2 or 3 countries which performed “better” than Singapore does not negate the achievement.
Actually, 1965 was not an exceptionally low point for Singapore’s GDP per capita. Maybe you bought into the PAP’s story on this. Below are the numbers from 1960 to 1965. You can see we had decent growth over those years.
1960 – US$395
1961 – $438
1962 – $430
1963 – $472
1964 – $464
1965 – $512
1966 – $561
In fact, Singapore was ranked 42th amongst 114 countries in terms of GDP per capita in 1965. Japan’s was US$914.
Germany and Japan had the benefit of massive aid after WW2 which got their economy off their feet, with the advantage of the NATO military umbrella.
Singapore’s GDP per capita started lower and is now pn par with both Japan and Germany.
Victor King you need to wake up.
Singapore is not been runned by the PAP. Singapore is being runned by only 1 man – was, is and always will be (until the day God thinks it’s time for him to challenge God on the almighty’s terms).
You’ve got a very narow mind to even think that its a group of men from PAP running the country. The ministers are just backroom boys doing the administration, thats all. Anyone who poses a threat to him (i.e. potential ministers or high office bearers who appear to have the potential to “usurp” him in either their level of intelligence or otherwise he removes methodically through trumped up charges and lies – Francis Seow, Devan Nair, etc. These are insiders who do not see eye to eye with him and they pose a dangerous threat to him).
Don’t walk the narrow road and see just the facade of achievements the government has made in public housing, the economy, the management of unemployment problem, etc. We all know they have been responsible for all these achievements and put Singapore into the first world within 30 years, ahead of many other countries during our time of grant of independence. There is a difference between goals and means. Most of us here are talking about the morality issue – that is, does the means being employed justify the end.
You can get rich. But if you get rich by killing and robbing or through immoral practices – is that the wealth that you desire? That is the issue at stake. We got rich. Yes certainly we did. But at what price and what cost ? A lot of people like you cannot see the bigger picture – we are rich now but at the expense of our future generations. I will not go into details on this point here (not the appropriate forum to do this) but I am pretty sure a lot of matured and discerning readers here know what I mean even if Victor King doesn’t. I will provide only a lead and you can do your own homework – study closely the ramifications of the CPF.
Briefly, the CPF is a “ponzi” scheme used by the PAP government to generate wealth for Singaporeans. But it is being done at the expense of future generations. Retirees of today are getting back their CPF money from the contributions put in by their children and succeeding generations. So when you have a demographic trend of a declining population and work force guess what is going to happen to the kitty. The Madoff effect is going to happen at some point of time in the future – but it is not going to be LKY’s problem isn’t it? He gets the glory now its somebody else’s baby many years from now. THAT IS THE REASON WHY THEY ARE NOW ASKING SINGAPOREANS TO HAVE MORE BABIES AND GETTING MORE FOREIGNERS TO TAKE UP CITIZENSHIP HERE.
You are right Reality check.
Like they say “Fool me once shame on You, Fool me twice shame on Me”
Yes CPF is a ponzi scheme – the past generation paying into the kitty to pay their parents, and later they collect from contributions from their children, and they from their next generation and so on. Its a downstream mode of receiving payment (Madoff operated it for 3 decades – the look of “prosperity” was only a manifestation).
And what did the government do with the inital CPF payments that were made ? That’s where your HDB housing, etc profligated. Bang, we have instant “net” asset growth – suddenly in leass than 3 decades we have the highest proportion of population who are property (home) owners – probably the highest in the world. Our nearest competitor in this field ? The USA. And by what method did they achieve this ? Sub-prime mortgage ! At least we made use of our CPF money – they did it through commercial operations. They made use of commercial money to finance people with low repayment ability (sub-prime) whilst we made use of savings to do self-financing. They went broke recently, we managed to survive. Kudos to our system (and credit to the government) but CPF still remains a ponzi scheme with a definite D-Day. It’s only a question of when. Japan, with the lop-sided demographic pattern of more elderly over the younger employeable ones is already facing crunch time.
G17 on Wed, 11th Nov 2009 1:00 pm
“My point is that Singapore did start from a lower base and caught up with Finland and Denmark…..So why are we belaboring the same simple point”
NO, it is NOT belabouring the same simple point
My friend, you forgot you mentioned this point.
“Few other countries grew at this velocity over such a long period.” YOU ARE COMPARING VELOCITY. My argument is that COMPARATIVE velocity is a function of which based you employed. Which is why perhaps you agreed that both Japan and Germany (given the help of Potsdam revitalisation of industry via aid) is now the top 2 and 3 economy in aggregate GDP absolute terms. And on those base, the velocity of South Korea, Japan, Germany would have surpassed us by the long miles.
But leaving that aside, you said Singapore has caught up with Denmark and Finland on per capital basis. On your statistics, no one would sensibly disagree with you. Singapore went for breakneck speed. But
I AM SURE NEITHER DENMARK NOR FINLAND was so determinely of growth efforts. For one thing – they are VERY ENVIRONMENTALLY CONSCIOUS OF DEVELOPMENT PROCESS which has slowed a lot of development project, economy and in some instances abandonment. You might not believe this. There has NOT been a single mining project in Greenland – a Danish colony for very long unknown history. Greenland will get independence soon. I saw a post which indicate even Petronas is farming into an oil exploration opportunity and Australian company in lithium mining (pending independence) and it has been known a long time of early exploration work that Greenland is highly prospective of gold and copper. There is no major exploration and mining industries in Finland too. Both countries are not as keen of development as perhaps Singapore.
Singapore progress, so is the rest of the world. Achievement of GDP growth is NOT a unique phenomena here. The possibility is that we have hit the peak for this population and geographical size constraints whereas others have a long way more to go.
This is my point. Velocity comparison is NOT valid. Neither is GDP per capital. It will peak at some point. I think Brunei and Kuwait are good example and Kuwaitis are investing internationally for growth along with Saudi Arabia. We seems very tired, lethargic and incapable in this direction.
SAD and worrying, G17.
@Victor King -
How pointless is pointless to you King?
Before 1984, the old guard administers Singapore most gentlemanly. They are the unsung heroes of Singapore. They won the people’s heart not by repression but the true fond love of their people. Their dismissal by one strong man had changed the political landscape of Singapore.
CSJ could choose to be silent and if he did, Singapore will be silent nobody would know of our pride and suffering. Isn’t it too much to gag him in Singapore and also out of Singapore? It is just too much.
Your notion that democracy doesn’t make any life better, so are you suggesting we should adopt monarchy headed by the Lee and Lee’s family.
If Hilter were born after LKY, he would have idolized LKY and called him “sifu” for such a nice branding of dictatorship.
There is a time to be objective and practical and a time that is not. If a bunch of wealthy fellow tied you to a desk and invaded your precious privacy with mean looking pistol widening your gap by just centimeters, got caught and send to court.
In the court, the defendant tells you to stop complaining and come to the point. After all discriminating is not really practical, jail them and you get nothing in return, instead you should concentrate on how to close up the gap and patch back the damages. Their doctors can give a makeover better than the original. Give you a sum of money and they are set free to continue with merry making, how about it King, and my dear fellow.
If discussion and debate is not practical to resolve things among man then maybe we all must bring our sickle and start meeting in the cul de sac and finish off one another expediently.
For there to be full democracy, I believe we need the following conditions. I may not be correct. Just some thoughts. 1)All people in the country must truely know what democracy is and what it meant. It will be disastrous if people think of it as a fad or just because it’s an “in” thing. 2)There must be enough (i cannot tell what is enough) people around to average out potential mistakes. Statistically speaking, the more people there is, the better the chance of making a smart choice. But whatever it is, there will be a minority. How to handle them? 3)There must be enough resources to go around so as to cater to divided goals when required. I think we have only one egg (Don’t ask me what it is. Think is Human Resource). “don’t put all your eggs in one basket” may not apply here. 4)Of course, Respect for each other. side track a bit, I think words like “st***d”, “id**t” had been used in excess throughout what’s supposed to be a constructive debate.
Lastly, I heard Mr Chiam is working on a GRC next term. Sincere well wishes to him. And of course to Mr Low. Obviously, even better wishes to the PAP. This coming election will be interesting. Cheers!
@to all who suggest CPF as “ponzi” scheme
CPF has 2 components: Employee and Employer contribution.
EVERY CENTS inside the employEE’s contribution CAN be used for housing. In fact, it is the case for most of CPF members, i.e. the OA contains little amount for retirement (this is also the issue protested by many people, rite?)
There are people with a lot of money in CPF OA; they are either well-off or have paid up their flat long long time ago [any other case is small minority]
The real amount held in CPF is practically employER’s contribution. We must understand that this amount is kinda “tax” for companies ..it’s a tax for our medical [MS] and our retirement [SA]. Do u think company will still give u this amount should it not mandated by law?
So, it’s not quite ‘true’ to say that gahmen holds our money inside CPF. What gahmen holds r the employER’s contribution, the money which was not ours in the first place.
“Does it help if one of us (e.g Dr Chee) keeps bad-mouthing our own country to others?
It just takes a moment to tar one’s reputation (be it an individual or a country)… but a long long time to build a positive reputation. One could do good for 80 years of one’s 85 years of life… but would ppl remember the 80 good years or the 5 not so good years?
Would it not be better if we work together & resolve any conflicts or differences internally, instead of ‘washing our ‘dirty’ laundry’ publicly?”
I don’t think Dr Chee badmouthing Singapore. You can’t badmouth what is the truth because everyone like you and me can see Singapore for what it is, clear from the smokescreen of PAP’s propaganda media. If we ourselves can make Singapore better through our own effort, why did I see anonymous bloggers blogging about the shit of Singapore PAP ?
The reputation of Singapore is ruined by PAP and no one else. Who control the populace to such pathetic degree just to advance their own interest ? Other country government does not control too much of the populace and yet willing to take responsibility for whatever shit, whereas ours try to control too much and evade all accountability and responsibility of the shit. So what who create those bad reputation. There is no water without fire.
If one sit down and think about it,it all boils down to GREED!
given that DEMOCRACY is the best choice for all peoples,USA,the
world’s role model for democracy,still fare badly!!!
why?… it’s all about greed! even in communist system on the other extreme.Just take a look at the FORBES’ rich list in CHINA and at once you can easily link the rich list to party and leadership connections.
Look around the whole wide world,it’s the same damn pciture…
always the same filthy rich names on the same ANNUAL RICH LIST,whether it’s usa,china,india,europe and even HK and Singapore.
So, I would humbly but bravely opine that democracy as has been practiced is just the lesser evil of all existing political system.
I can’t imagine the poor helping to bail out the rich and corporate America who themselves,by the greed they so proudly upheld and still uphold,would not even think of helping the poor when they looked seemingly comfortable…more profits,boost bottom-lines,increae shareholders’value and what-have-you!
So,the moral of this wolrd’s global story is to me a simple new economic equation of LESS GREED,AND IF POSSIBLE,MORE COMPASSION!!!
Simple as it seems and naive many may exclaim boldly but this world’s leaders of all politcal inclinations,business leaders and shareholders of companies and businesses need to realise that they need to CREATE EMPLOYMENT and apply HUMAN CAPITAL as the basis of a new WOLRD ECONOMIC ORDER with PROFIT OPTIMISATION as a more rational basis instead of PROFIT MAXIMISATION.else,i would not discount another worse financial/economic crisis!
Developed countries must engage developing giants like china and india in all fairness and reciprocity must be acceded by the developing nations.HONESTLY,how can anyone spar with CHINA merely based on cost of labour? just look at the way their peoples handled the recent OLYMPICS and you know what i mean!!!
This is but a elementary thought from an elementarily educated
person but shared with sincerity and honesty.
deoxin on Thu, 12th Nov 2009 1:22 am
You need NOT be so stupid as this on this blogg.
You pour from your carton of orange juice into a big jug and I pour from my carton of orange juice into the SAME CUP. If you then serve a few cups to visiting guests, how do you know that the remaining contents left in the jug is your contribution and what is mine contribution? Or it is indifferentiable of same orange juice?
When you feel like farting with guests around, PLEASE HAS THE DECENCY TO DO IT IN THE TOILET OR AT LEAST CLENCH YOUR BUTT, OTHERWISE IT IS EMBARASSING ALL ROUND.
STUPID!
@deoxin
What the poor singaporean workers have in their CPF will ultimately end out with the gahmen including the HDB they own.
monies left in the CPF is indeed as good as “marked for
hospital bills which implies that they would ultimately go back to the gahmen’s coffers as majority of CPF holders
could probably only afford gahmen-linked medicare,which by the time
they need it desperately,would be grossly inflated with tourists,now, not only coming for the IR but also to “while away” some of their time in the comfort and first-class care from expensive top-notch doctors and hospital matrons?!
the average singaporeans would,by then, be relegated to the nmore ordinary medicare attended to by less experienced doctors and “training” nurses!
So,unless you are a mega-buck employee(as against poor WORKERS),of which foreigners would obviously made out of based on current FT policy and what-not,with a lot of personal savings,you would end out ultimately with hardly anything in your name???What’s the use of working till you almost drop dead and then “squander” by duress your hard earned savings to further enrich already filthy rich (people)?
So,it does not matter how we call the existing retirement system by which name(ponzi or doremi…),ultimately you are cajoled into the same game!
Just for recap,this blog has previously had a good discussion on appropriate retirement schemes and some kind folks here suggested we look at the AUSSIE WAY,I THINK IT’S A RATHER GOOD IDEA.
This is a GLOBALISED WORLD and things must therefore change for the better especially the long forgotten POOR…the RICH AND MIGHTY has always has it GOOD in the old world,and therefore,as the new world calls for some kind of change(as in NEW),we,the citizens of EARTH,need to CHANGE our way of thinking and how we live our lives!!!!
@G17 & Get Real
Why hasnt anyone questioned the validity of the statistics?
Try some anecdotal measures, at USD50k per capita it implies that THE AVERAGE dual income household here approaches SGD140k a year, how realistic is that when officially 80% of our population resides in hdb flats where the combined income threshold is SGD96K a year (may be wrong here lol)?
Either the numbers (40% spread is not within sampling error) dont add up or the distribution of wealth is really skewed. In singapore’s case probably a little of both.
@Deoxin & Jim
The CPF isnt a ponzi scheme as it doesnt promise unrealistic payouts at low risk
.
It is the compulsory participation in asset markets which result in the long term redistribution of wealth from the working to the capital class.
The CPF interest rates are functionally SGD prime deposit rates ie the best rates a CASH saver can expect here. Because these rates are so low SGD cost of funds for other financial institutions are similarly low.
Combine low cost of funds with no capital controls you have a recipe for asset price speculation fueled by foreign money, the problem is that someone ultimately must pay for the low cost of these funds – the singaporean tax payer.
I realise that I am making VERY ABSTRACT generalizations here and am glossing over much of the details but the basic mechanism is as such.
Our private property markets have been open to this process for a long time, going through dramatic boom bust cycles as a result.
It is only recently has the HDB markets been inflated as such – although the process is slightly different (increased demand from FTs) but the end result is the same – the singaporean taxpayer who contributes 1/3 of his income to indirectly subsidize asset price inflation, all the while experiencing wage deflation (recent phenomenon).
Singapore today is very different from singapore 45 years ago, prior leadership has done very well to get where we are now, but ON RECENT PERFORMANCE their record is spotty at best – IF taken from the perspective of a working stiff here.
Our current policies reinforce the already considerable bargaining power that capital has over labor and seems to be continuing in that direction.
I contend that to continue down that path is eventually leads to destruction.
Social stability DEMANDS of the promise social equality or at least the illusion of it; an illusion that fades in the harsh light of growing income disparity that even our high employment levels cannot shade, a disparity further magnified in the densely populated confines of our little red dot.
“The CPF isnt a ponzi scheme as it doesnt promise unrealistic payouts at low risk”
The ponzi scheme works because of using unrealistic payouts to attract investors. On the other hand, CPF doesn’t need to promise unrealistic payout to entice people into Ponzi scheme because it is compulsory and holding people as hostage. But it doesn’t mean CPF is not a ponzi scheme.
Why should a government give you a higher payout if it is already made compulsory ?
quss13
The definition of a ponzi scheme has got nothing to do with interest rate differentials. It is used to describe a payment scheme whereby members (shareholders or subscribers or what have you) obtain distribution of interest or profits or capital return in specie (whatever) via payment (contributions) made from the proceeds of subsequent members – a downline super pyramid scheme. That’s what it is essentially.
Of course in CPF’s case the proceeds, apart from those returned to retirees annually, were channelled into investments and loans to the government (through purchase of government bonds and securities) whereas in the case of Madoff they went entirely to his pockets and those of his cronies.
Deoxin
The portion from employer and the portion from employee all goes into their ordinary, special, and medisave account according to the ratio specified. There is no differential bewteen the sums received from employers or employees as they are posted to their CPF accounts according to the ratios. For retirees, there is a retirement a/c from which the balances from the ordinary and special a/cs are transferred to constitute the minimum sum.
quss13
The term of “ponzi” scheme applied to the CPF system is a reference point to show how this colossal giant operates – i.e. to highlight the operating mechanism to show how it works. Ponzi scheme does not necessarily mean it is a fraud mechanism as many are led to believe. It is only fraudulent if the proceeds received are not channelled into the various instruments to generate capital growth. So in the case of our CPF scheme it is, as I have explained earlier through my several other postings elsewhere, a mechanism used by our government as an engine to fuel economic growth over the past few decades, and we have largely been successful. The only problem is, of course, its D-Day at some future point in time if the demographic trend is declining, i.e. when a smaller workforce of CPF contributors is supporting a larger portion of retires drawing upon the resources of the system. This is the very problem which Japan is already facing, a very real problem.
The government is trying to nib the bud of the problem through piecemeal effort by encouraging foreigners to take up citizenship here (to emanate an immediate effect to prop up the kitty) whilst at the same time encouraging Singaporeans to make more babies (with a longer term view owing to the gestation period before the offsprings can reach working age).
quss13, other than your missing the intended interpretation of the term “ponzi” there I think your other comments and points are relevant and certainly logical.
Regards
It is sad to see some here making disparaging remarks at Dr Chee when the man is fighting for the rights of all Singaporeans.
Are you so cowed by PAP that you are afraid to be truly free? Rather than working in a rat cage and staying in a pigeon hole for the rest of your pathetic life?
Are you so dim witted not to see that Singapore is heading for our ice berg and the ship will eventually sink if we allow PAP to continue its disastrous course?
Only with a two or multi party system can we avoid this ice berg by way of proper acountability and transparency in parliament. 2 MPs are not going to be able to do the job. We will need at least 20% to 40% of MPs in parliament to be able to do a good job anyway.
Yes, what you see now is the glitz and the physical materialism of success. And when the shits hits the fan, maybe you will wake up, but it will be too late.
Best to wake up now and see for yourself. You guys are living in the Matrix too long that even if freedom is given to you, you will still want to run back to your rat cage again.
And so you continue to disparage and give snide remarks to the man who is seeking to free you.
Jim
Yup ponzi’s have nothing to do with rate differentials, the rate differentials bit was about how easy it is theoretically for the CPF to fulfill its liabilities.
Wall’o'text warning
As you have pointed out how that through the simple purchase of SG bonds (a curious creation considering the govt runs surpluses, apparently they were created due to supposed demand from capital markets – wonder where that demand came from *wink wink*) the CPF should theoretically be able to meet all liabilities due to the perfect arbitrage afforded by said SG bonds.
This perfect arbitrage combined with the CPF/govt unilateral discretion in adjusting withdrawal ages arbitrarily is theoretically a perfect model, provided administration costs do not exceed arbitrage profits and no unhedged positions are taken, as they can perfectly match their cash liabilities with their asset cash flows.
Of course the above is moot if the CPF administrators take CPF monies and chuck them in other investments hoping to make a profit to pay bigger bonuses – I have no idea whether this is the case, but wouldnt be surprised if it is as evidenced by the recent resident committee funds buying minibonds fiasco.
Why i bring up the interest rate differentials is because I believe the artificially low interest rate environment here is directly contributing to asset price inflation and creating a transitory wealth effect, in effect front loading domestic consumption.
This front loaded consumption and asset price boom is very much like the US housing boom of the early mid 2000s which drove US GDP growth in that period, and we know how that turned out when the buyers ran out.
Our govt is just doing its own version hoping that by stuffing in as much immigration as possible coupled with favorable tax treatment of foreign capital we will be able to cushion/delay the inevitable pop.
The CPF’s role is in this is in setting a rate ceiling for cost of funds for domestic capital, one which is very low.
The highest “risk free” rate that domestic savers can enjoy is the CPF rate, and when 1/3 of all domestic wages are paid into the CPF, thats alotta of dough.
The CPF isnt a ponzi scheme nor is it like some of the underfunded, mismanaged and unrealistic pension systems overseas.
It is however, INDIRECTLY providing low cost capital for reinvestment, a good thing – IF labor is able to participate and benefit from the increased production from that investment.
As it stands now capital, NOT LABOR captures a disproportionate portion of increased production.
Evidence of this is rising unemployment, declining real wages and increased cost of living (including home prices), while companies are reporting record profits and increased PAPER wealth for asset owners.
Jim
In the sense that our current economic strutuce at large, not the CPF in particular, requires more participants to sustain itself –
YES, we are a Ponzi, ie no new players? -> house of cards fall down.
@qussl3 on Thu, 12th Nov 2009 9:23 pm
@G17 & Get Real
“Why hasnt anyone questioned the validity of the statistics?”
Yes, by your illustration of numbers, myself and G17 must be way off the mark. I am debating with reliance on G17 use of GDP statistics.
I agree it is fallacious to look at GDP or GNP per capita to “measure” economic income per head. Huge distortion arise? Because GDP per capita is GDP divide by population base and GDP is simply income/profit earned inside Singapore. That would include billion dollars after-tax profits of all big corporations like SIA, Keppel Corp, Sembawang Corp, Singtel, PSA, JTC, Singapore Land Authority, TH, GIC and all foreign enterprises etc etc. Do you and I get 1 cent of these earnings unless you are a shareholder and if they are listed entities. If you are NOT like me, the GDP statistic per capita is BULLSHIT “measure” of my income – in fact a DECEPTIVE MISNOMER favoured by sleazy political mindset to deceive our loyalty votes. In Singapore were the economy is so heavily skewed by big income generators as Government sector (PSA etc) GLCs and foreign MNCs (where transfer pricing distorts income flow out of the country), the wages components to Singaporean could be very small indeed. Remember with so many foreign workers getting salaries and benefit by their employment here – Singaporean citizen’s share of wages in terms of GDP is even smaller.
That explains the GDP per capita do NOT reconcile with earned income. In fact it is said that a very large proportion of Singaporean earned less than S$20K per year and don’t even submit a tax return every year.
THAT IS WHY I DON’T BELIEVE ANY OF THOSE BULLSHIT GDP STATISTIC BOAST OF INCUMBENT GOVERNMENT NOR THEIR SUPPORTERS – ignorant, innocent or deliberate distortions they might have been guilty of wrong perspective in debate on bloggs like TR or TOC.
Do you agree now???
quss13
Yes you are damn right. It is certainly a very delicate pack of cards and should be managed carefully as otherwise, like you mentioned, it will just fall apart. However, I think our government are very capable of managing the situation because they are pojectionist in nature, i.e. they have long sighted binoculars which scour the horizon for signs of trouble and take remedial action(s) before there become a reality. I think they were frightened at the spectre that Japan is now facing at its initial stage. The Japs will in all likelihood overcome this problem because their society is closely knit and patriotisn is a unifying virtue there.
But I am not sure if the same happens to the US because theirs is a consumer system and the effects will be disastrous if it happens. Though they do not have a CPF system like us they are faced with a similar problem currently, and that is their health care system which is in the process of going into capitulation. I dread to think if the latest rescue efforts that has just been endorsed by Congress fails and what the consequences will be. Probably another drubbing of the world economic system but maybe on a lighter scale perhaps.
Regards.
the employEE contributes 20% of salary on most cases. the percentage that goes to Ordinary Account is 23% up to 35 years old; then it goes down to 20% ..and keep going down according to age. This information is available on CPF website.
in that sense, we can generalise that:
1. OA is employEE’s contribution
2. SA + MS are the employER’s contribution
This is a generalisation, but not unreasonable one
Bcoz all OA can be used for housing (HDB) ..whatever untouched sum in CPF can be assumed as employER’s contribution part.
If you still cash in OA n u r still paying for ur flat, that cash can be used to refinance your home loan.
If you r below 40 years old, n still paying for HDB, you can try and calculate how much of CPF has gone to pay for your flat ..n how much you hv contributed to CPF (employEE’s portion) since your very fist salary.
If you hv contributed more than u hv used for your HDB (+remaining cash in OA ..which u can use to pay n refinance ur home loan), then ..u should calculate again; it’s just impossible.
In short, in most cases, for most people …the employEE’s contribution is used fully to pay for HDB.
deoxin on Fri, 13th Nov 2009 4:15 am
I know deoxin is extremely toxic chemical BUT THIS GENERALISATION ON FALSE PRETENSE IS ABSOLUTE THALLIUM JOKE of your caterpillar intelligence.
It is a PIG’S LIES SOLD AS PANDA GIFT. Leave this hoax in your little caterpillar-size mind INSTEAD of CORRUPTING THIS susbtance-based BLOGG
THANK YOU!!
@Get Real
Yup completely agree with you that often statistics are just political tools and often do not reflect the true situation.
With regards to actual income levels, the most reliable indicator of true wage levels is probably income tax receipts (as you have pointed out) and it is truly damning that a significant chunk of our workforce does not need to pay tax due to low wages.
It is just inane to suggest that no need to pay income tax is good if the ceiling is so low as is so often trumpeted by our leadership.
Singapore.. 3rd least corrupt country in the world.. US 19th.. Need i say more?