MM Lee: “Never mind the Gini Coefficient!”
October 21st, 2009 | 
Author: From our Correspondent
Singapore Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew had dismissed the minimal wage as a method to reduce the growing income gap between the rich and poor on the island state.
In response to a question by a SMU student on what Singapore could do to help its bottom 20 per cent, MM Lee answered that Singapore’s approach has been to create as many jobs as possible, while leaving the market to decide the right type of pay.
“Never mind your Gini coefficient. If you don’t have a job you get zero against those with jobs. So our first priority is jobs for everybody,” he said.
The Gini coefficient measures the income distribution across a country and is often used as gauge of the income gap.
Singapore’s Gini coefficient has increased steadily for the last 10 years with a slight dip last year due to the global financial crisis which eroded the wealth of the richest 10 per cent in Singapore.
According to statistics released by the Singapore government, the median income of the lowest 20 per cent of the income group has remained stagnant or even decreased over the last decade due to the influx of cheap foreign labor.
Singapore’s Gini coefficient is the highest among the 30 most developed economies in the world and ranks along the likes of Kenya, Russia and Nigeria.
The government’s liberal immigration policies has caused considerable hardships for ordinary Singaporeans while social benefits have not increased sufficiently to help those who are left behind.
There are no independent trade unions to represent the interests of workers in Singapore. Neither is there an opposition in parliament to check on the ruling party.
The largest so-called trade union in Singapore – NTUC, is actually a government-affiliated organization whose Secretary-General is a PAP minister appointed by the ruling party.
Draconian laws to curb civil liberties are also put in place by the ruling party to prevent any organized outpouring of dissent to protest against its policies.
MM Lee forgot to mention the fact that though it is important to create jobs for the people, measures must be put in place to ensure that the wages are sufficient for them to maintain a minimum standard of living.
With most Singaporeans continue to be ignorant of their political rights as citizens of their country, they will have no choice but to subject themselves to the mercy of the ruling party and its erstwhile leader MM Lee Kuan Yew.
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Then,
Never mind the job that pays 50 cents per hour.
Never mind the cheap foreigners who can’t even speak english properly to take over your job.
Never mind that you’re jobless and you have a family to feed.
Never mind that your wife can always go be a maid overseas.
Never mind how Singaporeans gave THEM a blank cheque.
Never mind how Temasek lost billions as we have a competent government. (not!)
Never mind how PRCs hang their China flag outside their HDB flat.
Never mind that Singapore is sinking fast.
Never mind that Singapore will have a civil war, ie, true blood citizens vs foreigners.
Never mind if the army comes in.
Never mind that old man.
Never mind that he just wants all of us to die, so that he would have a whole new set of citizens to start torturing all over again.
“Never mind your Gini coefficient. If you don’t have a job you get zero against those with jobs. So our first priority is jobs for everybody,”
Wow…. 8o
I am so at a loss for words!
I really am…!
Peasants’ woes do not concern out Dear Leeder. He makes $3 million a year for just talking down to you all!
Only when poor become poorer can the rich become richer. The super class needs the working class. Stop haggling with the rich, your fortune may just be their misfortune. When you stop working they become die standing. When the cost gets higher, their bank balance is much lower.
What is Gini Coefficient? I don’t know but I will know when its time to show you that I know. The master politician doesn’t look at things that do not serve their purpose. Get it.
The day our wives and daughters to go overseas to become maids might not be too far away!
like the words in the simple but beautiful song goes: ..When will they ever learn?…”
Indeed, it’s time the powerful and rich learn their lessons that in actuality,”greed is (NO) good”!The world don’t deserve
another Wallstreet-styled ” greed is good” catastrophy..then no amount of taxpayers(read as poor men) monies can help them.
I was thought that he rich should help the poor?or am i a dinosaur?..you tell me,pls.
I should say let’s not destroy jobs should be the mantra and not let’s try to create jobs;that should be a bonus instead!
Let the wolrd leaders fight arm -in arm and generouusly the ugly face of massive unemployment.
Greed has inadvertantly created this worldwide burden and therefore,only an honest reversal of this G R E E D can eradicate this monster unemployment for the workers of the world;once non-chalant white-collared professionals and managers included!
This is how the world is build upon. Why are some born to be kings whereas some are born to be paupers. Most will be dependent, only few will be independent..
Few will dare to venture out to the unknown, well that’s life. I feel that the ability to change is in your hand, whether it is worth to sacrifice for the changes one feel so strongly
The fact that LKY needs to screen questions show that his mental ability has decrease to an unreasonable level.
He never did that when he was a lot younger.
BTW, would a job that pays less than the cost of doing the job be reasonable?
If the rent in Singapore cost 1000 and the job pays 1000, should he expect singaporeans to do the job.
Such is the stupidity of the current govt including lky
Hey Readers
Check out this article on Countries with the Biggest Gaps Between Rich and Poor. Our situation is not good
http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/107980/countries-with-the-biggest-gaps-between-rich-and-poor;_ylt=AqpqQ6vP9MsOQYIPCcFDcYC7YWsA;_ylu=X3oDMTFhbjEzZ2oyBHBvcwMzBHNlYwNwZXJzb25hbEZpbmFuY2UEc2xrA2NvdW50cmllc3dpdA–
>In response to a question by a SMU student on what Singapore >could do to help its bottom 20 per cent, MM Lee answered that >Singapore’s approach has been to create as many jobs as >possible, while leaving the market to decide the right type >of pay.
Of course employers have created as many jobs as possible. But the job market has decided to give a miserable pay which are acceptable to only foreigners who can survive with it.
>“Never mind your Gini coefficient. If you don’t have a job >you get zero against those with jobs. So our first priority >is jobs for everybody,” he said.
Sure jobs for everybody, but if employers pay a miserable salary and Singaporean does not want it, it will go to the foreigner.
if he wants to provide job for singaporeans, he just have to close down the number of passes that they issues to foreigners and singaporeans will have more choices and employers have less choices and will have to pay more to get people to work for them or to increase productivity.
I didn’t know the agenda of singapore govt includes the duty to provide jobs to foreigners.
There you have it. Singaporeans should be satisfied with earning $3 a day instead of maybe $3 million or more a year. Leave your mortgage to your great grandchildren to pay.
There are plenty of jobs for shoe shine boys and girls for those wearing golden shoes working downtown and/or shopping along Orchard Road who are too busy making money and living a lap of luxury for all their incompetence – known and yet undiscovered.
Soon Singaporean females and free to travel can be either maids ( if they are ugly) or prostitues overseas (if they are pretty). We don’t see them here, less shameful for us to know of our “failures”.
Anyone joining me in celebrating the next national day flying our national flag, singing our beloved national anthem and OF COURSE, never-to-forget SCREAMING THE LOUDEST PRIDE OF OUR HIGHFAULTING NATIONAL PLEDGE???
Can’t wait for the next election in the meantime.
@Lucien
DON’T GET YOUR MESSAGE…ARE YOU IMPLYIMG THE ONE WHO IS BLESSED TO BE KING JUST LEAVE HIS PEOPLE TO SUFFER AND DIE?
IN CHINESE WISDOM,THEY SAY HEAVEN HAVE EYES.
RECENT WALLSTREET FIASCO BEARS TESTIMONY!
The PAP govt is proud to create jobs that pay next to nothing. Never mind if the wages are sufficient to feed, house, pay for medical & transportation expenses.
With all this cheap labour, the top level will be able to draw big fat salaries. BTW, the formula for ministers’ salaries are pegged to the top earners. When the fat cats get fatter, the MIWs can enjoy bigger salaries.
If ministers salaries are tied to the wages of the bottom 20%, they will be tripping over themselves to implement minimum wages.
I don’t believe what I’m reading. Singapore has one of the largest income gap in the world. Instead of saying that they will try to address this problem, he is saying that if we return the ruling party to power, they are helpless in trying to solve this problem. Singaporeans who voted for them would just have to accept that they will become poorer and poorer and the economy of Singapore grows. This is inevitable.
This is uniquely Singapore! No other leading of a political party facing elections would dare utter such words.
Of course, meanwhile their own salaries will continue to skyrocket.
Well, Singaporeans don’t have to accept that it is inevitable that they will become poorer. In the next elections, we can vote for the opposition and put people who sincerely want to help us in power.
“Never mind your Gini coefficient. If you don’t have a job you get zero against those with jobs. So our first priority is jobs for everybody,” he said.
while the salaries of our incompetent ministers reach 20 million dollars or more a year, many Singaporeans are expected to accept a job where they can expect to take home no more than 600 dollars.
Time for Change. Vote opposition.
“Never mind your Gini coefficient. If you don’t have a job you get zero against those with jobs. So our first priority is jobs for everybody,”
Despite PAP’s best efforts to create jobs for Singaporeans, our Gini index is still the highest among the developed countries! It speaks a lot about PAP’s efforts, doesn’t it?
Pls note that our actual Gini may even be worse…..
http://www.asiaone.com/Business/News/My%2BMoney/Story/A1Story20080215-49841.html
“But the Gini coefficient may underestimate total income and wealth inequality in Singapore as the Department of Statistics used only income from work – wages, as well as business proceeds for the self-employed. Income from dividends, rentals and interest was not included, and such income is likely to accrue more to high earners.
Also, the Department of Statistics only included employed households – defined as households with at least one working member – in its computation of the Gini coefficient, leaving retiree or unemployed households out of the picture.”
Like some fun teenage logo years ago says: ” SHARE AND SHARE ALIKE”.
I think the majority of the world’s 6 billion people must be
completely comfounded by the increase in FORBES’ 2009 RICH LIST
when so many other their fellow human-beings are out of jobs in the name of cost-cutting?
LYK is due to meet his maker soon. Presumably the answers are prepared for him as well.
Any appearance that his health or mental capacity has deteriorated would spell trouble for his son in the coming elections.
I guess they no longer want to achieve the Swiss standard of living but will be satisfied if we can achieve The Somalia standard of living.
What LKY is trying to say is :
If your mother happens to be a office cleaner or coffee shop assistant, she should be happy that she has a job. Otherwise she has to go overseas to work as a maid if we all insist on a minimum wage.
As what LKY has warned us previously, this is exactly the dose of good govt that we have bargained for.
LKY! U ARE THE IDIOT OF ALL IDIOTS. GET LOST!
while the GINI coefficient is an indicator of income disparity, it does not necessarily reflect the wealth of the country’s people nor indicate whether people are able to afford a decent living in the country. these have to be measured by rather different instruments.
for example, Croatia, Vietnam, Myanmar and Pakistan have lower GINI coefficients (according to the UN) than Singapore. but these countries have lower per capita GDP as well. on the other hand, Namibia, Haiti and Paraguay have higher GINI coefficients than Singapore and also have lower per capita GDP. more importantly, the income level of lowest 20-th percentile in both these groups are, adjusted for purchasing power parity, lower than Singapore’s lowest 20-th percentile. i.e. the ‘poorest’ in Singapore are still better off than the ‘poorest’ in these countries which have higher or lower GINI coefficients than Singapore.
i think the more worrying trend is that the income of the lowest 20th percentile in Singapore has not really grown much in the last few years. this, partially, has to do with the fact of the availability of cheap(er) labour in the form of foreigners.
but there might be a dilemma. i know a number of businessmen who are quite blatant that if they are not able to hire cheaper labour, then they might have to close down or move out of Singapore. i.e. even if we restrict influx of foreigners, there is no guarantee that there will be jobs for Singaporeans who would want to be paid more than a foreigner.
so how?
If you want good gini co-efficient then vote for a communist party, not the opposition. Mininum wage policy will only scare investors away. Dun be so childish, PAP is still the wisest at the end of the day. For goodness sake, please just suck thumb and do your job.
Time for Change on Tue, 20th Oct 2009 10:36 pm
“I guess they no longer want to achieve the Swiss standard of living but will be satisfied if we can achieve The Somalia standard of living.”
You are darn RIGHT! Lim Yew Hock says so.
Today there’s no turning back – 4.5 million mouths to feed. No mineral resources, imports drinking water, no size, etc.
Thank you MM. Thank you.
The climb henceforth is much more tougher. Witrh China especially coming into the comnpetition. Production costs must be low. How low? Cheaper labour for our companies but imported resources are expensive.
Any viable solutions? After the IRs what then? Are the IRs are compete with cheaper rogional ones being built now?
How to slove the impossible?
his time is running out…..
Now thanks to our MM for dishing out a dose of medicine to the SMU’s student, they should feel now high in ecstasy. These kids should be happy to get a job and stop asking stupid questions. Be happy if you have a job, get some pay is better than no pay.
There’s no need to bother about the bottom 20 percents, they are the core supporter of the PAP, election after election they faithfully voted for the PAP. They are willing to sacrifice for the PAP taking on jobs given to them by the PAP. In return for their big support, they get a bigger slice of the money in any surplus created by PAP.
well all said,there are “A FEW GOOD MEN”..GIVE THEM A CHANCE.
it takes time.
That makes it the 2nd time he says “Never mind”. Last time he said “Never mind what the people think.”
“I am often accused of interfering in the private lives of citizens. Yes, if I did not, had I not done that, we wouldn’t be here today. And I say without the slightest remorse, that we wouldn’t be here, we would not have made economic progress, if we had not intervened on very personal matters – who your neighbour is, how you live, the noise you make, how you spit, or what language you use. We decide what is right. Never mind what the people think.”
- Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew, Straits Times, 20 April 1987
■pap_is_very_unappreciated on Tue, 20th Oct 2009 11:21 pm
If you want good gini co-efficient then vote for a communist party, not the opposition. Mininum wage policy will only scare investors away. Dun be so childish, PAP is still the wisest at the end of the day. For goodness sake, please just suck thumb and do your job.
=================================================
Hello pap stooge,
If you believe the PAP rubbish propaganda which revolves around companies will all leave Singapore if we all implement the minimum wage, then they would have all left for Cambodia and India A LONG LONG TIME AGO, if investors were all only concerned about expensive wages.
Please, use your brains!
Lastly,
don’t you realize that PAP MIGHT BE a communist party as well? The similarities are so eerie – family owning country, income disparity, silence the opposition, put the poor by leaving them to die, only take care of the rich and elite.etc.
Wake up please! Singapore need more people like you to WAKE UP!
Suck what thumb do what job? That toilet cleaning job for 50 cents an hour ah? More like sucking co*k and do no job!
Quoting out of context and i get the feeling what MM is trying to do/say is to shift the focus from the low scoring Geni results to the greater fundamental underpinning issue of job creation which incidentally is a HUGE can of worms that compounds itself with Singapore’s competitiveness with our neighbours.
Which for the lack of a better solution, the governement has adopted a rather huge front gate for foreign talent. An interesting concept but poorly implemented with the present group of governing officials…
Hopefully this website will have less sensationalistic reporting and more intelligent, contextual viewpoints and arguments.
peace!
“Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country!”.How well said,many ex-PMETS must agree to this.Sad to say,however,this was not meant to be but it should have been if not for the cliched “foreign talent” is better policy.Where may I venture to ask are our original batch of
“angmoh” talents…gone to SOMEWHERE GREENER,long time passing…
Now,we have the next batch of Indian talents…and our local talents are just not good enough to make a comeback…We should have gone to the Indian INSTITUTE OF Management,perhaps?
Didn’t we read recently that NUS MBA is 11th in the world according to an “angmoh” newspapers-the FT of london.So,we are still not good enough to fill the vacancies left by our “angmoh” friends,some of whom I heard now enjoying themselves in Shanghai…the gals are prettier there too.
Coming back to more serious business,I think if our local and “pak-see-buay-chow”-i mean it in a good light,ie,loyal-talents were not relegated to the “RTS”-former TV station but popularly understood by the older guys as “roam the street-then,we,the ex-PMETS,could have polished our managerial and professional capabilities and be the “expatriates” in Shanghai
instead.And, we would have help Singapore in building its’ foreign exchange reserves via our remittances instead.
Meanhwile,still trying to send out letters and more letters,hopefully,someone rediscover their very own local talents….i hope it’s not a waste of papers;otherwise,the GREENIES would accuse me of wasting resources.
GOOD LUCK TO ALL LOCAL TALENTS!
@jason – Competition is a life long business from now to eternity. Will Singapore goes out of business tomorrow if we do not bring in “foreign not so talent” into Singapore and will we be overtaken by all our neighbors at one fell scoop?
Why must we have so little faith in our own citizen? Will you build an empire and ask your neighbor’s children to become your new children to inherit your wealth and throw your own born into the back seat? Yes you will, with your higher intelligent and higher viewpoint, you will. We are people of only common sense will never understand what the hack you are thinking. i know to you common sense has become a thing of the past and only dummy like us still hold dear to our heart. The interesting concept to you is not interesting to me at all. It involves not only me, my children but also my children’s children. Irregardless how well it can be implemented I will never buy it.
//fair and square
I don’t know what you are trying to say
I’m surprised that the 154th did not carry the headlines “Never mind GINI coefficient, jobs more important” in its reporting.
This did not do the old man justice – anything breathed out by this living god should be conveyed to every man in this little red dot.
Vote PAP and you will get your guaranteed job – just don’t complain if your pay is not enough to meet your living expenses.
“Never mind your Gini coefficient. If you don’t have a job you get zero against those with jobs. So our first priority is jobs for everybody,” he said.
===============================================================
This is utter nonsense. No leader of any political party facing elections in any other country would dare utter such works. This is uniquely Singapore.
I still can’t get over this madness. The PAP is promising us poverty if we vote for them.
They probably intend to suppress wages more by bringing in foreigners from AFRICA next.
And if that still doesn’t work, they probably will make SLAVERY next.
If you care about the future of your children, kick them out in the next elections.
To: Jason on Wed, 21st Oct 2009 1:55 am
You may feel that MM is being quoted out of context, because you accept his paradigm that the Gini Coeff is not important. However, the author of this article and many readers here are upset because the Gini Coeff is very important. It goes back to the question of what is the fundamental role of the government? To me, the most fundamental role of the government is protection of the weak from the powerful, the poor from the rich. Isn’t that why governments were formed in the first place? Because the weak needed to be protected from exploitation, laws were set up. Govt was set up to enforce the law and maintain order. The role of the government expanded in different ways in different parts of the world, but the basic reason for their existence should not be forgotten. Therefore to dismiss widening income inequality so readily naturally give rise to much consternation.
Why subsidies the luxury of living of those who brought us this FT mess now?
Straight speaking, it means accept your kiam chye life. Just like the untouchables in India, accept yr karma and do not even think of a better life. Roll up yr sleeves and work yr ass off, and get off their f**king uncaring elite faces.
MM Lee said that the problem of a widening income gap is one that most countries – not just Singapore – have to contend with and that such a split is inevitable in a globalised world. Global competition, he said, both depresses wages at the bottom and boosts wages at the top.
Let us then compare the Gini coefficients of US and Singapore. I chose US because it is also one of the most affected by global competition and after Singapore, US is the country with the next highest income gap among the advanced economies. No doubt, the Gini coefficient of US is also high but we want to see how the US managed in all these years comparing with Singapore:
http://i35.tinypic.com/333wry0.jpg
The blue color line refers to SG Household Income Inequality after accounting for Govt Benefits & Taxes. SG’s Gini coefficient is based on household Income from work per household member. Data from US and SG Govt sources:
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/pubn/papers/people/op-s15.pdf
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/IE-1.pdf
http://i35.tinypic.com/207tdu1.jpg
Here’s a better view of the graph without the values:
http://i34.tinypic.com/15pq0ox.jpg
In general, we can conclude one thing. US’s income gap may be high but it is not widening. For Singapore, under PAP’s managment, our income gap has definitely increased in the last 9 years!
Hi, I can see a lot of disgruntled people here, so is setting a miminum wage, a good thing?
Wouldn’t setting minimum wages caused job losses as it would increase the cost of running a business? Are there any economic theory to support the idea that minimum wages is a good thing?
“Sure jobs for everybody, but if employers pay a miserable salary and Singaporean does not want it, it will go to the foreigner.”
This is EXACTLY what’s happening in our society now. The bulk of foreigners coming in are no talents at all. They are here cause they are cheap. The salary may be alright for them since they are sending back the money to their own 3rd world countries but certainly, it’s not enough for a Singaporean to raise a family. It used to happen to blue collar workers but now, it’s happening to white collar workers too. The only people who are untouchable by FTs are the very rich at the top. At this rate, our Gini can continue to increase and when the US starts raising their interest rates, ours will follow and inflation will set in. More rough years for us Singaporeans! (FTs are ok, they don’t plan to stay here anyway)
Ingenious! Dismiss the VERY statistic that sits at the root of your deepest failures. The fact that he is paying any attention to it by mentioning it is because it is politically threatening.
@jason
you said:”which for a lack of a better solution,the government
has adopted a rather huge front gate for foreign talent…”
Well,if you are a big time businessman and your very own son is neither good at or interested in continuing your business and you employ “outside” talent,i can understand…it’s for survival sake.
Now,Look at some of our GLCs and TLCs,they got our more academically sifted-out students turned scholars to run their corporations thinking they could all perform excellently.
When some of them failed to live up to expectations,they say:”
Umm,perhaps we should replace them with our newfound love,the
foreign talents”.But when the FOREIGN TALENT failed,they trustingly got another and another foreign talent to fill the
job…”
Who in the first place say that scholastic talent equals
excellence in business performance?Not those among us who do not live in ivory towers but learned the hard way.Those of us who were ” all As ” students but still managed to go the local
varsities and colleges.Are we saying that those of us who were non-scholars and whose parents were not rich enough to send them overseas and have to make do at local varsities and colleges are not fit to be given a fair chance?Mind you,i happen to know a few rich chaps whose fathers send them for
“OFS”-not “OMS”- SCHOLARSHIPS(aka overseas father’s scholarships) and they got FIRST CLASS HONOURS when in the first place ,they could not get into the local varsities.
All i am saying is how can you know we are not talented before you have given a fair chance?Don’t forget,we are sons and daughters of the motherland…Oh,that “angmoh” talent screwd up,i guess we try the indian one..cos’ doubt the local “blokes”
can do a good job”.
Huh?…besides your favourite “overseas sons”,you haven’t try us out leh?
“but there might be a dilemma. i know a number of businessmen who are quite blatant that if they are not able to hire cheaper labour, then they might have to close down or move out of Singapore. i.e. even if we restrict influx of foreigners, there is no guarantee that there will be jobs for Singaporeans who would want to be paid more than a foreigner. so how?”
Bro, don’t believe the BS from PAP propaganda. With or without cheap labour here, factories stand no chance against factories in 3rd world countries. It’s a simple math, S$800 per worker vs RMB800 per worker. Those which are still around is because of other factors that require them to be in Singapore. For example, proximity to clients, IP protections, certain international certifications etc.
As for those factories which are not relocating but constantly rely on Govt grants, tax incentives and “cheap labour”, they deserve to be dead in the first place. We are just wasting our taxpayers money on them.
to Kojakbt on Wed, 21st Oct 2009 10:30 am
Hey thanks for the graph on gini coeffiicents of singapore and US. Just to clarify, is the gini coeff for us adjusted for govt benefits and taxes? so that we can compare like with like.
“If you want good gini co-efficient then vote for a communist party, not the opposition. Mininum wage policy will only scare investors away. Dun be so childish, PAP is still the wisest at the end of the day. For goodness sake, please just suck thumb and do your job.”
Yeah… but I’m afraid while you are sucking your thumb doing your job, your boss might already be in the process of sending in an EP application for a cheaper FT to replace you behind your back.
“Hi, I can see a lot of disgruntled people here, so is setting a miminum wage, a good thing?”
Minimum wage is one thing but the crux of the matter, I feel, is the flooding of FTs here in Singapore due to PAP’s over-liberal FT policy. Even if min wage is instituted, all the jobs can still go to FTs if PAP continues to liberalize on the quota. Between a S’porean on min wage vs an FT on min wage, the towkay will still love to take FT cause he knows that the FT is on 2 years permit and dares not give the towkay problem. Towkay can threaten to send him back anytime. Hence, the FT will have to “kuai kuai” behave.
Also, typically, FT borrows money and pays something like S$8-10K through agent so as to “secure” the job. Most of the time, the agent shares this money with towkay, effectively giving a wage rebate back to towkay. Hence, it’s even cheaper for the towkay to hire the FT even with min wage policy. This is another reason why an FT will behave at his best in the 2 years cause they need to earn back the money to pay off his debt and he cannot afford to be fired and sent back.
Next time, when you go to a shop or cafe or petrol kiosk etc and you see an FT, just casually ask him or her how much he or she pays in order to get here. You will be surprised how rampant this corrupted practice is. This is nothing more than modern day slavery.
p.s. Just in case you are wondering if our SG authorities know about this, the answer is yes, they know. But they will also tell you they can’t do anything about it cause typically, FT pays the foreign agents overseas outside the jurisdiction of Singapore. And, the transaction between the foreign agent and the towkay is also done thru overseas account or cash. It’s very hard to catch.
To Puzzled on Wed, 21st Oct 2009 10:42 am
Classic econ theory claims minimum wages set above the market equilibrium will lead to loss in jobs. However, this is a controversial area. While many economist subscribe to this view, there are also others who don’t. Some studies on the effect of min wages in US showed that increasing the min wage did not result in loss of jobs. Others argue that the study is flawed. There appears to be no consensus so far.
However, several new suggestions to address the issue of low wages has been proposed by economists. One such example is the one that our current workfare scheme is based on – supplementing the income of low wage earners from govt revenue. Since the additional cost is borne by the govt not by employers it sidesteps the issue of causing loss of jobs. But then of course we will then have to look at whether the govt has sufficient financial resources to fund this. Ultimately, the money come from taxpayers.
My personal opinion is that the workfare scheme is better, provided we can afford it. However, the current scheme might be a bit too stingy so many are unaware that it is an alternative to the min wage.
@kongwei
To simplify.
Why are some inherited millions. Why the boss son get the top job not based on merit or experience. So many examples in the world. Why your immediate superior who got no ability get the promotion instead of you. This is life, got to learn to accept. Do not expect people to help, in general term people are generally not so giving. (Have you try to donate 1 month salary to help these people) Most will spent on their family or loved one than they know…
Some of the lower wages people i know are poor thing got to skip lunch cus got 2 kids to feed. Whereas on the opposite side, i see low wages people spending all the wages on jackpot and 4 digit month to month.. (I believe the 1st example deserve help, but for the 2 example will u help) For me the answer is no help will be given to people who wants to gambling. There is always a choice in life, whether one wants to make the sarcifice..
If dont like the country you are in. Can make changes to leave like the foreigners in singapore. Or start to stand up in elections and be a leader (See if really you can sacriface for the nation to make good changes)
“Hey thanks for the graph on gini coeffiicents of singapore and US. Just to clarify, is the gini coeff for us adjusted for govt benefits and taxes? so that we can compare like with like.”
If you check the link: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/IE-1.pdf
I don’t think it mentions the Gini calculations were adjusted for Govt benefits and taxes. So, I think it’s in the original form. Even if benefits and taxes were taken into account, it would just mean that all the data points will shift roughly equally down giving us a somewhat horizontal line for the US Gini coe. Hence, it would still shows that the gap is NOT WIDENING, unlike ours…
@ Hazel Poa on Wed, 21st Oct 2009 11:12 am..US got housing subsidies for first-time home buyers, social security for unemployment etc. Here, the amount of “taxes” euphemistically sold as “subsidy” in politically-loaded rhetorics ( of refused public accountability of actual construction costs by HDB) makes comparison of government benefits and taxes IMPOSSIBLE. Judging by the huge surplus over the years from ERP, and HDB sales going into Singapore Land Authority, I would think that we are way overloaded with tax rather than benefit. The US relied a lot on deficit spending – if that is any indication that their citizen is “under-taxed” and “over lavished” upon.
The opposite seems to be the case here from these anecdotal evidences.
We want JUSTICE, not JUSTEASE.
@Lucien
OBVIOUSLY YOU ARE OFF-TRACKED!
THE BOSS’S SON OF CCORSE WILL INHERIT HIS BUSINESS…NOT ME NOR YOU!HE CAN WISELY HIRE OTHERS TO ASSIST HIM LATER.
HERE,WE AREN’T TALKING ABOUT THE BOSS’S SON,WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A COUNTRY AND HER GOVERNMENT’S BASIC DUTY AND CONCERN FOR
THE PEOPLE WHO PUT THEM IN POWER.
IT SEEMS TO ME YOU HAVE A DEFEATIST ATTITUDE..WHY IN THE FIRST PLACE MUST WE GIVE UP OUR CITIZENSHIP AND OUR RIGHTS
WHEN WE ARE UNFAIRLY TREATED BY OUR FELLOW COUNTRYMEN WHO HAPPEN
TO RUN OUR LIVES ONE WAY OR ANOTHER?
PERHAPS,YOU WANT TO STAND UP FOR ELECTION YOURSELF AND FIGHT FOR YOUR FRIENDS WHO GOT 2 KIDS TO FEED BUT GOT NO JOB? THAT IS ALSO A GENUINE SACRIFICE WORTH CONSIDERING BY YOU?
NO NEED TO ADMIT DEFEAT AND PACK AND LEAVE LIKE THE NEW GENERATION INDIANS WHO COME HERE COS’ OUR COUNTRY HAS STILL GOT
GOOD JOBS BUT SOME GUYS PREFER TO HAND THEM OVER TO SOME FOREIGN CHAPS.
BY THE WAY,I WOULD SUGGEST SINCERELY THAT YOU STAY HERE AND CONSIDER TO TRY AND HELP THOSE OF YOUR FRIENDS AND FELLOW COUNTRYMEN WHO GOT NO JOBS BUT NEVERTHELESS ‘GOT 2 KIDSTO FEED
TO FEED’.
TR
Would be gd if you could get writer to explain what goes into gini calculations.
Eg I’ve always wondered if the presence of billionaires like Jim Rogers can skewer the numbers. Remember in last 10-15 yrs, govmin hve been trying to get more billionaires to base themselves here.
##fpc on Tue, 20th Oct 2009 8:40 pm
“I didn’t know the agenda of singapore govt includes the duty to provide jobs to foreigners.”
=====
The PAP should put this point in their party manifesto in the next General Election to let Singapore citizens decide whether they support or reject it.
Let’s not get too worked up by the GINI or another numbers
less we get ourselves into the web of diversions and lose track
of hat we want to discourse here in this rather good forum.
I have no qualms if our beloved governnent officails so decide
to welcome great minds and entrepreneurs like Mr JIM ROGER cos’
we must agree that he is obviously a “…foreign talent that will create more jobs for singaporeans…”
By the way,what’s the use of numbers like GINI or for that matter,GDP AND GNP? if such statistics are not translated
into a betetr livelihood for the common people..you and me?
let us not be unwittingly deiverted by our own fault and than blame the “OTHERS” later after the elections.
Guys, this is out of hand. All the old man is saying is that Gini or no Gini, job creation comes first as the PAP govt’s priority. No job, no talk, get it?
@ Lucien on Wed, 21st Oct 2009 11:32 am
…”If dont like the country you are in. Can make changes to leave like the foreigners in singapore. Or start to stand up in elections and be a leader (See if really you can sacriface for the nation to make good changes)…”
Great suggestion but GREATER OF HYPOCRISY AND RHETORICAL LYING HERE.
What about we give you the trial by ordeal of medievel criminal law?. That is bundled you up with ropes and then throw you into a lake just like you said of “make changes to leave like the foreigners in Singapore.”for a different experience for your entertainment.
If you die, we shall all applaud you for your heroism. But if you survive this ordeal just like your assertion..”Or start to stand up in elections and be a leader.” then we call you a liar of a ghostly politician peddling the cousin of deceitful rethorics here. We shall throw you in again in a huge deep tank filled with hydrochloric acid.
Is there fair, Lucien???
@ Cheaper Better Faster??
Not too long ago while riding in cab,i learn something from a fellow countryman.He told me he switched to driving a taxi as it is more “cher yu”(more freedom).
i ventured to ask him why more freedom?
He told me he was actually one of the most trusted lorry driver
in a local LOGISTICS company at one time when his “Old boss” was still the “towkay”.Later on.when his towkay’s son took over the reins,he started to hire more PRCs drivers …imitating our SBS TRANSIT i suppose?
Well,the PRC drivers were more “dare devils” and my boss “pressured me to dirve faster …” to make more trips.
“i told the boss that we must be more safety-minded on the roads besides trying to make for trips but he fired me intead…”
I understand form him that his boss later asked him to return-which he declined-to the company as the PRCs drivers were casuing the company a lot of accidents!
So cheaper faster better?? you got it?!!!
@ Hazel Poa on Wed, 21st Oct 2009 11:31 am
Thanks for sharing. It did not occur to me there is an alternative, the idea of minimum wages just makes me uncomfortable. That was the reason why I wrote on this page. Cheers.
I think if we set a minimum wage for workers, companies will pack up and move to lower cost countries like China. If we do not impose minimum wages local companies will hire foreigners.
It looks like the only way to deal with this is to reduce the cost of living and business in Singapore. That way Singaporeans can live with a lower salary and companies will not relocate and they have no reason to hire foreigners.
I think the rising cost of HDB flats is causing all our current employment problems for the blue and white collar workers. With a lower cost of HDB flats we can become more economically competitive compared to other countries.
Government must help Singaporeans to be more competitive. Allowing Foreigners to take our jobs in this manner just makes our lives harder.
Never mind if you earn $600 and your household expenses are $1500.
Never mind if the jobs go to foreigners while singapooreans remain jobless.
Never mind if more people jump onto MRT tracks.
Never mind if there is no minimum wage as long as we the PAPaya bench-marked our salaries to the six highest professions in the country and have no competition for our jobs because we have the army behind us.
Never mind if people are suffering.
Never mind if more families break-up because of financial problems.
Never mind if the old sleep on the void decks and can’t afford 3 square meals a day.
Neber mind. Neber mind. Neber mind.
Practise double standards. Hypocrites. They can pegged their salaries to the highest professions yet the workers cannot have minimum wage but must compete with the Chinese, Indians, Bangladeshi, Thais, Burmese, Vietnamese, Filipinos and what have you.
Truly a first-whory country.
Kojakbt on Wed, 21st Oct 2009 11:30 am
…..”Minimum wage is one thing but the crux of the matter, I feel, is the flooding of FTs here in Singapore due to PAP’s over-liberal FT policy”..
I agree with you that FT policy is too liberal. I am in the banking industry, my workplace has a lot of FTs which I think should be have given to our fellow Singaporeans.
However, my experience with FTs is different from yours. In the banks, FTs are getting more than local Singaporeans while doing the same thing. Their talent is managing bosses expectation and they present themselves much better than our locals here.
For me, I like to challenge the idea of Foreign Talents. This idea is based on a very strong assumption that this society work attitude is based on meritocracy. Whoever is “talented” will get the job.
However, I think the reality is very different, at the end of the day, it still boils down to where you are and who you know.
“Never mind your Gini coefficient. If you don’t have a job you get zero against those with jobs. So our first priority is jobs for everybody,” he said.
Very, very true MM. Your feet are always planted on the ground.
Check out http://www.ams.org/membership/develop.html and these 160 odd countries out of abt 180 “low dues rate for the year 2010 of US$16″ per capita don’t even bother abt GINI. They just ask for 2 square meals a day.
So, please don’t write trash. Use you HEAD lah.
ultimately,who can compete “on equal footing” with China and perhaps india or maybe some other budding econnmies in terms of
“cheaper”?let’s be realistic;theories are still just theories unless we put some honest bit of real world grind into them.
Just look at the Beijing OLMPICS!
i sincerely don’t think the next host would be able to do something like we have witnessed Beijing.Only CHINA can surpass
themselves in this act if yet the OLYMPIC torch were to be lighted there.
So,we need to get rid of the conning and cajoling of our employers and leaders for in this whole excercise of “global
competition” or rather lower and lower cost leads to one thing,and that is, MAKE THE RICH RICHER.
i wonder who would be the next “wonder boy” for cheaper better faster…you tell me.
@Lian Beng:
Erm…yea, it’s the same thing, this time we’re complaining that they gave us jobs, but our kids still can’t get 2 square meals a day sometimes.
I don’t quite get what your head is thinking, but it seems you forget that our friendly neighborhood government don’t help the poor, and more often than not they like to think that our poor are rich because they have kids. Real nice mentality.
“…foreign talent that will create more jobs for singaporeans…”
Speaking of this, I remembered Lim Boon Heng told some local aunty that allowing PRC beer girls to work in kopitiams is to help to create more jobs for the aunties. There is this coffeeshop I always go to for my kopi and there is a PRC beer girl working inside. I can tell you with 100% certainty that so far, I do not see any new jobs created inside the kopitiam since the PRC began to work there. It’s always the same people cause I can count the number of workers in there…
==============================================================
Chin Too Lan on Wed, 21st Oct 2009 2:34 pm
==============================================================
Practise double standards. Hypocrites.
They can pegged their salaries to the highest professions
yet the workers cannot have minimum wage but must compete with the Chinese, Indians, Bangladeshi, Thais, Burmese, Vietnamese, Filipinos and what have you.
==============================================================
Practise double standards. Hypocrites.
They can pegged their salaries to the highest professions
yet the workers cannot have minimum wage but must compete with the Chinese, Indians, Bangladeshi, Thais, Burmese, Vietnamese, Filipinos and what have you.
==============================================================
*** Most Outstanding post.
“Guys, this is out of hand. All the old man is saying is that Gini or no Gini, job creation comes first as the PAP govt’s priority. No job, no talk, get it?”
So, what’s the point of creating all the jobs but occupied by FTs?
“I agree with you that FT policy is too liberal. I am in the banking industry, my workplace has a lot of FTs which I think should be have given to our fellow Singaporeans…
For me, I like to challenge the idea of Foreign Talents. This idea is based on a very strong assumption that this society work attitude is based on meritocracy. Whoever is “talented” will get the job. However, I think the reality is very different, at the end of the day, it still boils down to where you are and who you know.”
I also have friends in the finance industry. There is a very unhealthy phenomenon going on now. If the recruiting person is a FT, there is a tendency that this FT person will recommend the recruitment of another FT person. This is especially true of FTs coming from a particular country in South Asia. Singaporeans will stand no chance. To make matters worse, there is no quota for EP hires (ie, salaries greater than $2500). In theory, you can have a dept full of FTs without a single Singaporean. For that matter, the whole company can consist of FTs (well, may be except for the cleaning lady who is a Singaporean). Contrast this with the US. Each year, Congress (not the Administration) authorises only 100,000 H1B visas for foreigners to work in the US.
What old Harry is trying to say to Singaporeans is “Have peanut is better than no peanut!!!” It is easy for him to say since he is at the upper echelon and earning millions by changing pegging his salary to top 6 earners. He will sing a different tune if his salary is pegged to middle or lower income.
BTW, why are we still ASKING him for ANSWERS? It is time we give him answers! His era had already passed, the world is different from what it is 20 years ago. I say “Never mind the old despot!”
Oh by the way you would have read or heard on the news that CHINA’S FOREX reserves surpassed usd 1 trillion in recent times,dwarfing even the “rising sun”JAPAN whose “SON”(sun) has forgotten how to rise?
Weren’t they the cheaper better faster just some years ago?What
happen?So,you see this things aren’t that simple.
For that matter,our forex reserves were way above china and it seems to me that that was just a few years ago and our people went to China and “teach” them how do things.
@ Lian Beng on Wed, 21st Oct 2009 3:01 pm
So, please don’t write trash. Use you HEAD lah.
In China, people collect recyclable drink containers and they can feed a family of two square meals.
In Singapore, you collect used cardboard or PET bottles, what your family will be eating? Grass are free on the roadside?
So please don’t talk trash here. Use your EYES lah.
I tend to agree with LKY’s arguement if the rational is to continue the Singapore story. Gini coefficient or other tools does have their limitations and we shouldn’t base the whole argument on just 1 measurement tool.
Lastly, if there is no income divide, won’t it be like the transition from Manor farm to Animal Farm? We can argue until the cow comes home, but everyone’s idea of great/small income divide is different and do we seriously believe our lives will improve greatly just by the improvement of Gini coefficient?
@Kian
Look Kian(i guess you are clever-”kian”),if you take a fair amount of risk with your life-savings like Mr Warren Buffett or
Dr Goerge Soros and you make your millions and billions,nobody’s gonna complain.
But,if your people work and slot for you and you pay them “peanuts” or peanuts’ shells,and pocket the rest,
i guess you ought to be shot!
or else,if you like some unscrupulous chaps in Wallstreet and elsewhere screw people upside down by cheating and profiteering
i guess you have to pay the price yourselves when you are caught.
Like we heard before:” a fair day’s wage for a fair day’s work”,those wise words,i think, was valid,is still valid and will be valid!
@fair and square
There is a saying that you cannot change what you are but you can change your market overnight.
If my honest personal opinion upset you, then remove the tinted lenses to feel better.
@ Kian on Wed, 21st Oct 2009 4:09 pm
You are adding fiction to the debate. There is no seeking of dividing all income. Gini Coefficient show DISPARTTY signaling the RISKS that a lot in the bottom might be unable to cope with rising costs of living. For a Government to deny its relevance to public policy decision is abrogration of its duties to the nation.
Ask yourelf this simple question – why would the ENDURING society “subsidise” your luxurious living by giving you the mandate to rule when the economy is in such a mess of dislocations including such widening DISPARITY.
MAYBE IT IS TIME WE FIND SOMEONE BETTER.
@Anonymous
Well, you might think i am twisting but so be it, if consideration is based on making Singapore relevant in the global market, then it is correct argument that we leave it out of the Gini coefficient.
Then we ask ourself, will having low income disparity have any effect of our life short term and long term?
however, you are surely better than someone who attacks the man rather than the issue.
@kian
Well the huys in this forum are not so narrow hearted as you perceive leh.
Me upset by your mere opinion,hey,that’s thinking too highly of yourself,,,are you also a scholar?
I think it appears rather that you yourself are upset cos’ wise folks here can’t agree with you.
@ Kian on Wed, 21st Oct 2009 7:24 pm
Your ARGUMENT ( not you, I stressed again ARGUMENT) is adding fiction to the debate on DISPARITY which is the basis and CONTENT of my post.
And I should add that I agree that the DISPARITY is due to global market competitive pressure BUT THAT IS NOT THE SAME EVERYWHERE IN EQUAL DISTRESS. I see and lived in for some time in more “egalitarian societies” elsewhere for many good reasons. It is more so, in my judgment due to failures of economic policies here for too long and that is not the subject-matter in this thread of debate.
Unlike your POSITION, I disagree that Gini Coefficient should be left out because it is clear to me that wealth is unfortunately the divide in this technlogical age. I am sure that some homes cannot afford a PC or a PC upgrade because of financial pressures. Some kids will be left behind in this global race and is NOT GOOD FOR OUR SOCIETY’s comnpetitiveness. I prefers, in deepest thoughts (not necessarily of social equities) that ALL KIDS HERE SHOULD HAVE EVERY OPPORTUNITY TO LEARN IN A FAST CHANGING TECHNOLOGICAL WORLD AND NOT LEFT BEHIND TO BE A SOCIAL (MAYBE CRIMINAL) RISKS TO SOCIETY. I have long past my use-by date and had my glorious moment on the stage in my life time. I like to see Singaporeans in similar fate of opportunity.
I believe that the sum of the parts is greater than the sum total, so all Singaporeans will be part of that productive equation. To deny that Gini coefficient is irrelevant consideration given the competitive pressures is ‘FALSE ECONOMICS.” A good management team led by brighter Singaporeans and FT is useless of achievement if those at the bottom cannot deliver.
You can, of course, disagree.
At the end of the day,of what use to our lesser bros and sistas are the high sounding GINI or GDP.
What a good government must do is to help them make money
so that they can pay for their HDB,SCHOOL FEES,MEDICAL FEES,
UTILITIES with some spare cash to drink KOPI?
So need oof high sounding GINI,just don’t be greedy.
I’m just back from this list:
http://www.ams.org/membership/develop.html
When we get into this list then paying electricity bill for surfing let alone one square meal would be a problem.
It really shocked me the countgries left out can be counted by the finger tips.
I ask myself, “What did this tiny, weeny, resourceless do to get itself out of this list for 44 years?????????
To me the PAPies are saying if you vote us, we will not bother about closing the income gap. It is inevitable that there will be more hardcore poor because of globalisation. We are helpless to do anything.
The opposition says the can close the income gap and improve the lives of the bottom 20 to 30 per cent.
Guess which party I am going to vote for.
http://www.cnngo.com/singapore/none/worlds-greatest-city-50-reasons-why-singapore-no-1-399897
@Correspondent,
Please cite the source for this statement in your article: “According to statistics released by the Singapore government, the median income of the lowest 20 per cent of the income group has remained stagnant or even decreased over the last decade due to the influx of cheap foreign labor.”
Why should we disagree with MM LEE to disregard the GINI,afterall,that’s purely statistical number and like all
statistics it can be juggled.How are we to verify its accuracy?
Let’s leave such bombastic numbers to the economists and academics to regurgitate.
Let’s get REAL nad what is real is fair wages for all workers
and keep costs accessible.
We don’t need to reach the “unreachable stars”…well,not everyone at least!
Hi Indexer,
Please go and check out singstat, don’t expect us to spoon-feed you all the time.
@admin,
It is precisely after searching Singstat that I find your claim cannot be substantiated.
Hi indexer,
Sorry we have no time to teach you how to search singstat.
For the immediate proof, please refer to this report by ST on 1 July 2008:
http://app.mfa.gov.sg/pr/read_content.asp?View,10504,
THE strong economy and tight labour market have boosted the pay of Singapore workers – but only barely, owing to higher inflation.
Wages rose last year by 5.9 per cent – a seven-year high – from 4.5 per cent in 2006.
However, after adjusting for inflation, the increase was 3.8 per cent, said the Manpower Ministry’s annual report on wages released yesterday.
But for the lowest-paid group of cleaners, labourers and related workers, the picture is bleak.
Their wages have remained stagnant for 10 years, unlike other groups such as managers, professionals, sales and service workers, as well as plant and machine operators.
Last year, managers – the best-paid group – earned 4.86 times more than cleaners and labourers. The gap has widened in 10 years. It was 4.13 times in 1997.
There is a more detailed report by MOM. Please go and check it out yourself.
If you don’t even know how to search for basic information, then perhaps this site is not suitable for you.
Hi Indexer,
Also check out page 46 of the joint paper by Mukul Asher and Amanendra Nandy:
“According to official statistics, nearly 40 per cent of the households at the bottom experienced a decline in real income between 2000 and 2005.”
Case closed. If you are still not satisfied, perhaps you should contact these two academics from LKY School of Public Policy and NUS Department of Economics.
We hope readers understand that we have limited time and resources to quote a link for every figure we listed on our articles. Even ST and CNA do not bother to cite their sources. If we were to dig out every single source for you, we will have no time to maintain the site.
Remember: there is always Google.
In fact, the PM should be the one to meet the students as he is the best person to chart the future course for Singapores next generation. Why MM?
If we invite bill gates and warren buffett to come to singapore, will their presence cause the gini coefficient to go higher? How will the higher gini figure affect the welfare of the poor in s’pore?
In singapore, the rich can eat abalone but if the poor can still afford to eat fishball noodle, it is ok. In the Philiippines, the poor eat rice with instant noodles as a dish.
@lee sg
“In singapore, the rich can eat abalone but if the poor can still afford to eat fishball noodle, it is ok. In the Philiippines, the poor eat rice with instant noodles as a dish”
Ironic reference to abalone. Hougang poor were treated to abalone porridge to feel rich for a little moment of glory until the PAP grassroot organisation withdrew that feel rich opportunity post the last election results. Now, Hougang residents must be “reclassified” to be “poor” eating noodle with fishball -if at all that it is the valid observation of yours?
When I read of HDB statistics of town councils’ escalating difficulty of collecting conservation charges, I am not sure how many are eating fishballs among those in default.
You compared them to Philippines – again poor comparison. Could those economically grows any fruits and vegetable under your bed? In Philippines, they can survive by fishing in the rivers and goes back to subsistence agriculture. Many Singaporeans DO NOT have such an option.
And you know it. A bit more sense of comparison would be appreciated.
So what’s the best way to close the income gap? Any bright ones out there who has a solution? To close or not to close? Shoulld govt close it artificially by introducing a minimum wage? I hardly think it would help except that more Singaporeans would end up at the lower rung of the value chain while driving away industries to places elsewhere where there are NO minimum wage.
So let’s compete “fairly?” and solely on wages,ie, cost of labour(or labourers should i say!).
How may i ask can we ever again be cheaper better faster,all at the same time?Let’s face the hard facts when we sincerely wanna do such comaparisons.I guess some of our cheaper ASEAN
neighbours can’t even compete then.
Well,presuming we can cos’ we go all out!
How about say. a we agree to take home sgd 1000,same as PRCs lah? We cannot survive on that leh.Got to deduct transport,makan etc left little bit only.
How about that HDB loan,utilities,school FEES and school pocket money for the children?
PRCs different.SGD1000 SALARY=SAVE PLENTY when convert to reminbi;can feed the whole family happily back home as no need to pay HDB,very low utitilities,low school fees to name a few.
Also,never mind,here i can just “squeeze,squeeze” in a small rented flat to save money!
So you see,low wage competition is difficult.
like bob dylan says: “The answer is blowing in the wind…”
Just help us reduce cost of living if that is in any way possible..give it a try…and let’s start to SHARE again…welas or woes.
Ultimately,G R E E D is not the answer…it cna’t solve problems!
Our government not only use comparison as they like but also select the benchmark that they want, as long as in their favour!!!!
Simply tabling the below salaries gives you a rough figure of S$75 million. The figure is only for the top 30 listed figures, exclusive of pensions, MP allowance and such.
A person with a taxable income $40,000 will be paying $900 in income taxes.
Assuming a low figure of $100 million to pay our Ministers, you will need 111,111 person with a taxable income of $40,000 simply to support their pay alone.
But.. according to IRAS, 0.4% of resident taxpayers paid for 1/4 of income tax collected.
Fuck the Gini Coefficient! IRAS collected a total of $29.8 billion in tax revenue in FY2008/2009. Even a total of $200 million for their salaries is only less than 1% of all tax collected. Quick! Raise salaries!
“THEY make up just 0.4 per cent of resident taxpayers – but account for a hefty one-quarter of net personal income tax payable.
In all, 3,799 residents, a surge from the 2,751 in the previous year, declared an annual income of above $1 million for Year of Assessment (YA) 2008.
Their net tax payable? $1.36 billion, or more than what’s payable by some 830,000 resident taxpayers who make $150,000 or less a year.
As for the biggest group of taxpayers, the 193,387 with declared income of $30,000 to $40,000, they were liable for net personal taxes of just $38 million, after tax credits and rebates.”
The peasants meagre earnings alone are not sufficient to pay them peanuts. They need the high networth corporations/elites/FT here.
1. Elected President SR Nathan – S$3.9 million.
2. Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong – S$3.8 million.
3. Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew – S$3.5 million.
4. Senior Minister Goh Chok Thong – S$3.5 million.
5. Senior Minister Prof Jayakumar – S$3.2 million.
6. DPM & Home Affairs Minister Wong Kan Seng – S$2.9 million.
7. DPM & Defence Minister Teo Chee Hean – $2.9 million
8. Foreign Affairs Minister George Yeo – S$2.8 million.
9. National Development Minister Mah Bow Tan – S$2.7 million.
10. PMO Miniser Lim Boon Heng – S$2.7 million.
11. Trade and Industry Minister Lim Hng Kiang – S$2.7 million.
12. PMO Minister Lim Swee Say – S$2.6 million.
13. Environment Minister & Muslim Affairs Minister Dr Yaccob Ibrahim – S$2.6 million.
14. Health Minister Khaw Boon Wan – S$2.6 million.
15. Finance Minister S Tharman – S$2.6 million.
16. Education Minister & 2nd Minister for Defence Dr Ng Eng Hen – S$2.6 million.
17. Community Development Youth and Sports Minister – Dr Vivian Balakrishnan – S$2.5 million.
18. Transport Minister & 2nd Minister for Foreign Affairs Raymond Lim Siang Kiat – S$2.5 million.
19. Law Minister & 2nd Minister for Home Affairs K Shanmugam – S$2.4 million.
20. Manpower Minister Gan Kim Yong – S$2.2 million.
21. PMO Minister Lim Hwee Hwa – S$2.2 million.
22. Acting ICA Minister – Lui Tuck Yew – S$2.0 million.
23 to 30 = Senior Ministers of State and Ministers of State – each getting between S$1.8 million to S$1.5 million.
Note: 1. The above pay does not include MP allowances, pensions and other sources of income such as Directorship, Chairmnship, Advisory, Consultancy, etc to Gov-linked and gov-related organisations or foreign MNCs such as Citigroup (for Lee Kuan Yew), etc.
@reply I am not a defeatist, just that
The scrip goes like this: Money is bad, rich people are shallow and greedy, and people become rich by taking advantage of others
But the same people who say money is bad say money is connected to their self-worth – they wished they had it and you dont (From an article in BT)
After all, if you’re wealthy and no one like you, you still have alot of money. But if you spend your free time obsessing about the rich, you could end up in worse shape emotionally, personally and financially
“People who get up in this paranoia spend all night reading these blogs, six month later they haven’t done anything to better themselves”
My intention is to say look forward to improving one’s life is a more realistic approach, at least this one you can change..
what is wrong with expressing one’s view with this blog?
What is wrong spending time on this blog?
is it better to waste your monies and time on gambling or other vices?
The govt cannot tax you when you read and comments on this blog.
That is why they are sending agents to put people down in this blog.
Besides, as if you follow the pap rules, will get you some where too.
If it does, the gini index would be so high. you won’t be reading this blog in the first place.
Every generation, every culture, there always is oppression where simply following the ruling party’s rule is not sufficient in getting out of the hole since their interest is in keeping you in the hole.
This blog or blogs like this is the simplest way to express yourself and to see things clearer. Nobody will sue you until you are broke, especially the other party is exaggerating in the first place.
Really, the fact that pap has to send people to give “moral” lessons on blogs like this, to disuade people from thinking is a signal that pap has lost its intellectual leadership. They cannot convince people in a rational manner.
//rc
Does it makes sense to compare Singapore (after 44 years of slogging) with Cambodia who went through more than 10 years of Civil war?
Pls wake up.
//pap_is_very_unappreciated
Your wisest PAP rulers just declared that they cannot ensure that you have a good living standards.
They just declared that he never wanted to lead you in the NS.
They made a lot of losses with GIC and TH.
They had to present a gift to malaysian police for doing their job.
Thank you goodness, you are not in the leading position.
Else, we will be in more shit than ever.
//anon
Nice number and i cannot even say that there is no corruption.
and sad to say, I must declare that there is gross incompetence in the way these minsters are doing their job.
They easily took out .5 billions in fees from Singapore coffers for every 5 years that they rule and they are not even nice to look at.
Of course look is not the essence here but there is no performance from them and I wonder why they are getting this kind of fees.
Solution is actually very simple,
1. Maintain our legal, physical and labor infrastructure.
2. Limit economic immigration to critical science and technology and finance jobs.
3. Increase tax incentives for MNCs to be based here but require employment of locals unless skill set is not available locally (see 2.)
4. Do NOT have a minimum wage, our low wages now is caused by relative cost of living disparities with foreign economic immigrants.
5. Have a separate elections commission.
6. Require that politicians cut ALL corporate ties while in office, and will not work in the private sector for 2 years after leaving office and be provided a stipend based on a multiple of working wage (definition is tricky) for those 2 years.
The KEY concepts are to focus on moving away from competing on price (labor costs in our case) and focus on competitive advantage (digging the moat as warren buffet would call it).
Our course a transition would be extremely painful, but based on our current trajectory it is almost certainly a matter of time before we succumb to irrelevance on the global stage.
@fpc @ Lucien
I agree with fpc,it smacks of real hypocrisy on the part of
the self-righteous Lucien.May i ask then,why is he on this blog at all?..say one thing but meant another.
Lucien,noboby force you to log into this wonderful blog
and please don’t go off-tracked.
We are not talking about whether it’s good or bad to be rich-that we leave it to you to decide for yourself-here we are talking about GREED and unfairness.So stick to the issues,will you please.
And,no need to mention your “good’? intentions about people
improving their lives when it’s not as simple as you suggest.
First,ask yourself,what you can do for some of the folks here
on this blog who just want to voice out the genuine problems?
Perhaps,you could speak up for them in PARLIAMENT???
reply@fpc
Even if you are right, there is alot wasted energy put into this..
I am just taking the gini coff with a pinch of salt, wishing that i could be in the top 20%. And asking myself what did i do wrong and can i improve to be in the higher percentile.
Aiyah it is like that one.
@Lucien
So,you wish to be in the TOP 20? of the GINI ?
All the best to you! But please don’t try and stop others
who have lost their jobs and their livelihood from airing
their honest views…they just hope to get heard and like you
and yet,not exactly,they hope that they can better “get by”.
So,if you are already there in the higher level of the GINI,
perhaps you wanna suggest a betetr way for them to air their views or even help them by speaking up for them so that they
won’t waste their energy in this blog???
PS: by the way,i honestly maintain that energy spent in this blog is “not wasted” as you inconsiderately suggest.
PS1: IF YOU FIND A BETTER AND MORE USEFUL BLOG,LET US KNOW.
//Lucien
There is no wasted energy.
It is passion. Nobody ask you to come to this blog.
It is better than reading shitty times.
and you don’t need to pay 70cents for the shit.
Best of all, according to Lee Ka Shing:
Knowledge is power and knowledge changes destiny.
Thinking and discussing one’s thought through sites like these makes one think and one will make better decision from here.
You pay a lot more not thinking .
//lucien
I think you should write better.
I don’t know what you are talking about in your last few sentences.
At least do a better job when you are paid to screen this blog.
//rc
How come you don’t have the guts to compare the gini coefficient with HK or South Korea or Taiwan?
We grow at the same time and are exposed to the same global competition.
Comparing with Cambodia is like a adult woman comparing her figure with a baby girl: senseless
//lucien
People listen to the govt and TV and bought REIT shares from TH and look where they are now.
Those REITS from TH are all in financial difficulties.
What else should we do: drive more cabs?
teach more tuition, watch TV from community centres?
have babies? so that they get exploited by the pap for NS and have their salaries and options driven down by PAP’s so called FTs.
Please!