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	<title>Comments on: Debunking the official myths about HDB flats (Part 2): HDB flats are affordable to the most Singaporeans</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.temasekreview.com/2009/09/02/debunking-the-hdb-myths-part-2-hdb-flats-are-affordable-to-the-masses/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.temasekreview.com/2009/09/02/debunking-the-hdb-myths-part-2-hdb-flats-are-affordable-to-the-masses/</link>
	<description>The Voice of Singapore from Singaporeans for Singaporeans</description>
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		<title>By: HDB strikes back with ghost writers : The Temasek Review</title>
		<link>http://www.temasekreview.com/2009/09/02/debunking-the-hdb-myths-part-2-hdb-flats-are-affordable-to-the-masses/comment-page-1/#comment-29219</link>
		<dc:creator>HDB strikes back with ghost writers : The Temasek Review</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Sep 2009 07:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://temasekreview.com/?p=12273#comment-29219</guid>
		<description>[...] &gt;&gt; Part 2: HDB flats are affordable to most Singaporeans [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &gt;&gt; Part 2: HDB flats are affordable to most Singaporeans [...]</p>
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		<title>By: How much money is HDB making or losing from the sale of new flats? : The Temasek Review</title>
		<link>http://www.temasekreview.com/2009/09/02/debunking-the-hdb-myths-part-2-hdb-flats-are-affordable-to-the-masses/comment-page-1/#comment-28467</link>
		<dc:creator>How much money is HDB making or losing from the sale of new flats? : The Temasek Review</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 09:26:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://temasekreview.com/?p=12273#comment-28467</guid>
		<description>[...] &gt;&gt; Part 2: HDB flats are unaffordable to most Singaporeans [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &gt;&gt; Part 2: HDB flats are unaffordable to most Singaporeans [...]</p>
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		<title>By: XXX</title>
		<link>http://www.temasekreview.com/2009/09/02/debunking-the-hdb-myths-part-2-hdb-flats-are-affordable-to-the-masses/comment-page-1/#comment-27386</link>
		<dc:creator>XXX</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:48:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://temasekreview.com/?p=12273#comment-27386</guid>
		<description>Lets vote for other parties!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lets vote for other parties!</p>
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		<title>By: mm HELP ...</title>
		<link>http://www.temasekreview.com/2009/09/02/debunking-the-hdb-myths-part-2-hdb-flats-are-affordable-to-the-masses/comment-page-1/#comment-25170</link>
		<dc:creator>mm HELP ...</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 00:02:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://temasekreview.com/?p=12273#comment-25170</guid>
		<description>As HE said long ago and even BEFORE some of US were born ... THAT ... &quot;BIG FISH EATS ... (WELL) ... small fish&quot;!!! WE GET!!! ... AS &quot;WE NOW SEE THE BIG FISH PAP EATING ... us ... the small fish&quot;!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As HE said long ago and even BEFORE some of US were born &#8230; THAT &#8230; &#8220;BIG FISH EATS &#8230; (WELL) &#8230; small fish&#8221;!!! WE GET!!! &#8230; AS &#8220;WE NOW SEE THE BIG FISH PAP EATING &#8230; us &#8230; the small fish&#8221;!!!</p>
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		<title>By: blacksheepshepherd</title>
		<link>http://www.temasekreview.com/2009/09/02/debunking-the-hdb-myths-part-2-hdb-flats-are-affordable-to-the-masses/comment-page-1/#comment-25141</link>
		<dc:creator>blacksheepshepherd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:38:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://temasekreview.com/?p=12273#comment-25141</guid>
		<description>THOUGHT OF TYPING A LOAD OF THESIS WITH EVERYONE TO SHARE A TWO CENTS WORTH OF COMMENT. BUT REMEMBERED A FAMOUS QUOTE BY A FAMOUS LEADER &quot;THERE&#039;RE NO FREE LUNCHES&quot; SO I&#039;VE DECIDED TO CONTINUE GRINDING MY BONES TO DUST. 

OOH..BUT I&#039;VE REALLY ENJOYED CATCHING A GLIMPSE OF A RECENT TV PROGRAM TITLED &quot;THE PERFECT MEAL&quot; WHICH ON THE FINAL EPISODE (NOT TOO SURE IF IT&#039;S FINAL EPISODE, COS I&#039;M BUSY GRINDING MY BONES.) SHOWCASED SOME HAPPY FACES ENJOYING THEIR PERHAPS &#039;FREE LUNCHES&#039;. STILL, SOME MIGHT COMMENT IT&#039;S &#039;SOUR GRAPES&#039;...OH WELL..

~ HAPPY GRINDING ~</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>THOUGHT OF TYPING A LOAD OF THESIS WITH EVERYONE TO SHARE A TWO CENTS WORTH OF COMMENT. BUT REMEMBERED A FAMOUS QUOTE BY A FAMOUS LEADER &#8220;THERE&#8217;RE NO FREE LUNCHES&#8221; SO I&#8217;VE DECIDED TO CONTINUE GRINDING MY BONES TO DUST. </p>
<p>OOH..BUT I&#8217;VE REALLY ENJOYED CATCHING A GLIMPSE OF A RECENT TV PROGRAM TITLED &#8220;THE PERFECT MEAL&#8221; WHICH ON THE FINAL EPISODE (NOT TOO SURE IF IT&#8217;S FINAL EPISODE, COS I&#8217;M BUSY GRINDING MY BONES.) SHOWCASED SOME HAPPY FACES ENJOYING THEIR PERHAPS &#8216;FREE LUNCHES&#8217;. STILL, SOME MIGHT COMMENT IT&#8217;S &#8216;SOUR GRAPES&#8217;&#8230;OH WELL..</p>
<p>~ HAPPY GRINDING ~</p>
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		<title>By: fpc</title>
		<link>http://www.temasekreview.com/2009/09/02/debunking-the-hdb-myths-part-2-hdb-flats-are-affordable-to-the-masses/comment-page-1/#comment-25078</link>
		<dc:creator>fpc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:04:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://temasekreview.com/?p=12273#comment-25078</guid>
		<description>//JT 

You got to be kidding.

Not using CPF to pay for rent means that people have to fork out cash to pay for the housing loan in addition to be stack up cpf monies which you cannot take out when you retire.

You are trying to kill the average singaporeans is it.

CPF is not inflationary.

govt policies are inflationary. the way they change the rules for minimum downpayment and the downgrading rules are the factors that drive the housing price. Not to mention their pricing strategy.

Other countries have similar cpf system but they don&#039;t have that bloated housing price problem. 

Many countries who don&#039;t have cpf system also have bloated housing price problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>//JT </p>
<p>You got to be kidding.</p>
<p>Not using CPF to pay for rent means that people have to fork out cash to pay for the housing loan in addition to be stack up cpf monies which you cannot take out when you retire.</p>
<p>You are trying to kill the average singaporeans is it.</p>
<p>CPF is not inflationary.</p>
<p>govt policies are inflationary. the way they change the rules for minimum downpayment and the downgrading rules are the factors that drive the housing price. Not to mention their pricing strategy.</p>
<p>Other countries have similar cpf system but they don&#8217;t have that bloated housing price problem. </p>
<p>Many countries who don&#8217;t have cpf system also have bloated housing price problem.</p>
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		<title>By: PAPsmearer</title>
		<link>http://www.temasekreview.com/2009/09/02/debunking-the-hdb-myths-part-2-hdb-flats-are-affordable-to-the-masses/comment-page-1/#comment-25058</link>
		<dc:creator>PAPsmearer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 07:35:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://temasekreview.com/?p=12273#comment-25058</guid>
		<description>JT, that is bang on. In fact, when the PAP says our net worth is rising with the HDB property values is another big fallacy. 
when they say this, they are essentially asking u to speculate on real estate. There is no guarantee that your HDB flat value will rise. In fact, many people in the last decade have experienced a loss on the sale of their flats and subsequently, a decline in net worth. Why speculate like this? Much better for the PAP to mandate that all CPF funds be in a guaranteed fixed term deposit at a rate of say inflation rate plus 4%. After all, they earn much more than that when they use your funds to speculate in real estate and stocks all around the world.

By equating the house value with retirement fund, it does not answer many questions. Like how do u fund your retirement? Sell the flat? Where would u live after that? In an even more expensive retirement home? Or get a new mortgage on the flat to pay for your retirement? WHich bank would lend to a retiree with no income?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JT, that is bang on. In fact, when the PAP says our net worth is rising with the HDB property values is another big fallacy.<br />
when they say this, they are essentially asking u to speculate on real estate. There is no guarantee that your HDB flat value will rise. In fact, many people in the last decade have experienced a loss on the sale of their flats and subsequently, a decline in net worth. Why speculate like this? Much better for the PAP to mandate that all CPF funds be in a guaranteed fixed term deposit at a rate of say inflation rate plus 4%. After all, they earn much more than that when they use your funds to speculate in real estate and stocks all around the world.</p>
<p>By equating the house value with retirement fund, it does not answer many questions. Like how do u fund your retirement? Sell the flat? Where would u live after that? In an even more expensive retirement home? Or get a new mortgage on the flat to pay for your retirement? WHich bank would lend to a retiree with no income?</p>
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		<title>By: JT</title>
		<link>http://www.temasekreview.com/2009/09/02/debunking-the-hdb-myths-part-2-hdb-flats-are-affordable-to-the-masses/comment-page-1/#comment-25051</link>
		<dc:creator>JT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 06:48:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://temasekreview.com/?p=12273#comment-25051</guid>
		<description>I agree with PAPsmearer that CPF should play a bigger part in the analysis on affordability.

Many Singaporeans use up as much of their CPF as possible to pay for their HDB flat. So if you have 1000 per month in your CPF ordinary account and take up a 30 year loan, you will be able to pay up to 360,000 (although much of it will end up in interest payment). 

Add in the a bit of savings for the initial payment, and then consider that usually it is 2 working adults contributing to the payment, then well, I&#039;m lazy to do the exact math, but you can see why HDB prices has risen to the present level.

In the absence of CPF, would newly married couples be willing to commit up to $2000 cash every month for property? Very likely not. Cash has a lot of alternative uses; CPF has much more limited alternative uses. Thus I believe that CPF has actually contributed to the rising HDB prices, and I can predict that it won&#039;t rise much further than what is affordable from the CPF ordinary account monthly contributions of the average income earner, because above that, it means paying cash monthly.

One further thing: when HDB prices increase, rentals also increase: the 2 are complementary goods. When rentals increase, cost of labour increases and general prices also increase. Thus, CPF has an overall inflationary effect on Singapore.

Now, all this is still relatively fine as long as the economy is doing well, and PAP can blandly console us with how our net worth is increasing with our HDB property values. However, we are sitting on this inflationary tide and with the rising labour costs: if one day Singapore loses its competitive edge, the whole HDB/CPF deck of cards will come crashing down. We have seen a bit of this in the current downturn. With paycuts and job losses, people who are maxed out to their ability to pay become unable to service their housing loans.

Thus I feel that CPF should not be allowed to be used for housing payments so that housing prices do not get over-inflated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with PAPsmearer that CPF should play a bigger part in the analysis on affordability.</p>
<p>Many Singaporeans use up as much of their CPF as possible to pay for their HDB flat. So if you have 1000 per month in your CPF ordinary account and take up a 30 year loan, you will be able to pay up to 360,000 (although much of it will end up in interest payment). </p>
<p>Add in the a bit of savings for the initial payment, and then consider that usually it is 2 working adults contributing to the payment, then well, I&#8217;m lazy to do the exact math, but you can see why HDB prices has risen to the present level.</p>
<p>In the absence of CPF, would newly married couples be willing to commit up to $2000 cash every month for property? Very likely not. Cash has a lot of alternative uses; CPF has much more limited alternative uses. Thus I believe that CPF has actually contributed to the rising HDB prices, and I can predict that it won&#8217;t rise much further than what is affordable from the CPF ordinary account monthly contributions of the average income earner, because above that, it means paying cash monthly.</p>
<p>One further thing: when HDB prices increase, rentals also increase: the 2 are complementary goods. When rentals increase, cost of labour increases and general prices also increase. Thus, CPF has an overall inflationary effect on Singapore.</p>
<p>Now, all this is still relatively fine as long as the economy is doing well, and PAP can blandly console us with how our net worth is increasing with our HDB property values. However, we are sitting on this inflationary tide and with the rising labour costs: if one day Singapore loses its competitive edge, the whole HDB/CPF deck of cards will come crashing down. We have seen a bit of this in the current downturn. With paycuts and job losses, people who are maxed out to their ability to pay become unable to service their housing loans.</p>
<p>Thus I feel that CPF should not be allowed to be used for housing payments so that housing prices do not get over-inflated.</p>
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		<title>By: CPF WAS INTENDED By 1st PM "AS OUR RETIREMENT FUND" ... And NOW ... HAS IT BEEN PAP's "FUN" FOR ALL THEIR 'Fund FUNS" ... ???!!!</title>
		<link>http://www.temasekreview.com/2009/09/02/debunking-the-hdb-myths-part-2-hdb-flats-are-affordable-to-the-masses/comment-page-1/#comment-24914</link>
		<dc:creator>CPF WAS INTENDED By 1st PM "AS OUR RETIREMENT FUND" ... And NOW ... HAS IT BEEN PAP's "FUN" FOR ALL THEIR 'Fund FUNS" ... ???!!!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 15:55:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://temasekreview.com/?p=12273#comment-24914</guid>
		<description>First THINGS FIRST ...

1.  &quot;Mentor&quot; as 1ST PM and middle-age man told US that HE CALCULATED 25%+25% = 50% &quot;IS ENUFF&quot; - &quot;MEANING&quot; FOR &quot;RETIREMENT And HDB Flats ONLY&quot;  Of Course??? Trust he WAS truly sincere then ... BUT then ... It&#039;s like Wah ah ah ... So Smart AH ... As CAN see into 540-59 years AHEAD eh???!!! And so like I&#039;ve said too elsewhere in TR/WP He Of COURSE said NOTHING about HOW HE Ever got around &quot;KNOW&quot; A total monthly CPF contributions WOULD BE ENOUGH ... FOR RETIREMENT???!!! ...

2.  And So ... For Decades by now .. THAT&quot;S HISTORY ISN&quot;T IT!!! BeCaws The Present Feedback from most and many citizens online and in other ways all say THE SAME Thing ... CPF &quot;NO ENUFF For RETIREMENT&quot;!!!  ... AS Changes TO It&#039;s ORIGNAL PURPOSE AND USAGE ... AND Singaporeans ARE A ForGiVing and SHORT memory lot ... AS ...

3. CPF PAYS TOO For ...
3.1  Private Housing ...
3.2  Then HDB&#039;s DAB flats ...
3.3  Hospitalisation ...
3.4  Then Some Specialist Medical Treatments ... like dialysis because It HAS become MORE EXPENSIVE THAN ... in Malaysia ... and some other ASEAN countries!!!
3.5  Higher Education ... like University AND Polytechnics ...
3.6  ... Any care to ADD for participation ...?
3.7  PRICE INCREASES FOR ALL OF THE ABOVE ITEMS ...!!!

4.  Is then then ANY MYSTERY THAT Mr. Lee&#039;s CPF System of &quot;IS ENUFF&quot; IS now Showing OTHERWISE??? ... OH ... I Can already hear some rumblings ... like we mMUST BE Fair to him!!! ...BUT WHY??? ... AS ...DOESN&#039;T HE ALWAYS SAY &quot;WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY&quot; to US ALL??? ... SO ... IS IT THEN UnFair for US TO TAKE ISSUE With Him and HIS PAP NOW???

5.  I say ... I saY ... I sAY ... I SAY ... &quot;I SAY&quot; ... &quot;I SAY!&quot; And FINALLY ... I DO WANT TO SAY TOO ... DI DI DI DA DA DA ... FOR EXPLANATIONS ... Nothing Wrong AND Bad WITh THIS I BELIEVE???</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First THINGS FIRST &#8230;</p>
<p>1.  &#8220;Mentor&#8221; as 1ST PM and middle-age man told US that HE CALCULATED 25%+25% = 50% &#8220;IS ENUFF&#8221; &#8211; &#8220;MEANING&#8221; FOR &#8220;RETIREMENT And HDB Flats ONLY&#8221;  Of Course??? Trust he WAS truly sincere then &#8230; BUT then &#8230; It&#8217;s like Wah ah ah &#8230; So Smart AH &#8230; As CAN see into 540-59 years AHEAD eh???!!! And so like I&#8217;ve said too elsewhere in TR/WP He Of COURSE said NOTHING about HOW HE Ever got around &#8220;KNOW&#8221; A total monthly CPF contributions WOULD BE ENOUGH &#8230; FOR RETIREMENT???!!! &#8230;</p>
<p>2.  And So &#8230; For Decades by now .. THAT&#8221;S HISTORY ISN&#8221;T IT!!! BeCaws The Present Feedback from most and many citizens online and in other ways all say THE SAME Thing &#8230; CPF &#8220;NO ENUFF For RETIREMENT&#8221;!!!  &#8230; AS Changes TO It&#8217;s ORIGNAL PURPOSE AND USAGE &#8230; AND Singaporeans ARE A ForGiVing and SHORT memory lot &#8230; AS &#8230;</p>
<p>3. CPF PAYS TOO For &#8230;<br />
3.1  Private Housing &#8230;<br />
3.2  Then HDB&#8217;s DAB flats &#8230;<br />
3.3  Hospitalisation &#8230;<br />
3.4  Then Some Specialist Medical Treatments &#8230; like dialysis because It HAS become MORE EXPENSIVE THAN &#8230; in Malaysia &#8230; and some other ASEAN countries!!!<br />
3.5  Higher Education &#8230; like University AND Polytechnics &#8230;<br />
3.6  &#8230; Any care to ADD for participation &#8230;?<br />
3.7  PRICE INCREASES FOR ALL OF THE ABOVE ITEMS &#8230;!!!</p>
<p>4.  Is then then ANY MYSTERY THAT Mr. Lee&#8217;s CPF System of &#8220;IS ENUFF&#8221; IS now Showing OTHERWISE??? &#8230; OH &#8230; I Can already hear some rumblings &#8230; like we mMUST BE Fair to him!!! &#8230;BUT WHY??? &#8230; AS &#8230;DOESN&#8217;T HE ALWAYS SAY &#8220;WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY&#8221; to US ALL??? &#8230; SO &#8230; IS IT THEN UnFair for US TO TAKE ISSUE With Him and HIS PAP NOW???</p>
<p>5.  I say &#8230; I saY &#8230; I sAY &#8230; I SAY &#8230; &#8220;I SAY&#8221; &#8230; &#8220;I SAY!&#8221; And FINALLY &#8230; I DO WANT TO SAY TOO &#8230; DI DI DI DA DA DA &#8230; FOR EXPLANATIONS &#8230; Nothing Wrong AND Bad WITh THIS I BELIEVE???</p>
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		<title>By: R3</title>
		<link>http://www.temasekreview.com/2009/09/02/debunking-the-hdb-myths-part-2-hdb-flats-are-affordable-to-the-masses/comment-page-1/#comment-24893</link>
		<dc:creator>R3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 13:56:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://temasekreview.com/?p=12273#comment-24893</guid>
		<description>STIR Case study from canada

http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection/NH18-23-5E.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>STIR Case study from canada</p>
<p><a href="http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection/NH18-23-5E.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection/NH18-23-5E.pdf</a></p>
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