got proof? on Mon, 27th Apr 2009 2:03 pm 

“Though Pastor Derek Hong of COOS had expressed his explicit support for the actions of new AWARE President Josie Lau and co, many members of COOS are not involved in the saga. They attend Church simply to learn more about the religion and not to advocate the Church’s stance on homosexuality.”

To say something like that you must have interviewed some of the churchgoers?

Ordinary Citizen on Mon, 27th Apr 2009 11:08 pm 

It’s a good reminder even though the articles and postings here do not incite any hatred or discrimination against the ordinary COOS members. However, I believe they will still be affected in certain way with this fiasco. A good example is the impact of the doings of TT Durai and his kakis on the innocent patients and general staff of NKF.

shoestring on Tue, 28th Apr 2009 1:05 am 

“Pastor Derek Hong of COOS had expressed his explicit support for the actions of new AWARE…”

And therefore he is messing with secular matters? Allow me to give an analogy.

If a parent supports his child’s attempt to run for presidency in his school’s students’ union, is he messing with the affairs of the union?

As a Pastor, he is carrying out his duty in giving spiritual and moral support to members of his church, like a father does to his child.

Has he taken over premises of AWARE and done his preaching there? No, it is within the confines of the church, their private space that you have invaded.

What else would you expect to hear in a church service? Is it a crime to preach and expound on biblical principles which you/your spy has voluntarily sneaked in to listen to? Is it a crime that they say things which you do not agree with when it is not directed at you in the first place?

Robox on Tue, 28th Apr 2009 7:32 am 

To shoestring:

Re: “And therefore he is messing with secular matters?”

Yes, he would be if supports his church members in dimantling AWARE’s pre-existing agenda, and replace it one which is motivated by his religion.

Is that too difficult to understand?

Reader on Tue, 28th Apr 2009 7:41 am 

I’m waiting for WP to snoop on a homo couple in the act and make it news…

supporter of honest people on Tue, 28th Apr 2009 10:17 am 

Taken from Kent Ridge Common -
…..spokesperson of the church categorically state that “There is no church connection. The church is not at all involved in secular affairs”……an explicit email calling on church members to join an organization, attend the general meeting, and vote against constitutional changes…..is already an explicit move by the church to influence the outcome of events within a secular organization.

In all conscience, how can s’poreans trust dishonest ppl to lead AWARE??

Preaching and giving moral support to a congregation is different from explicitly asking church members to join and overtake a secular organisation. Are you trying to twist the fact here, shoestring?

For honest people, there is nothing to fear or hide from others. Honesty applies to all people including leaders of charity & religion. TT Durai, Minyi and Derek Hong are all dishonest people and s’poreans should be wary of them.

Lop on Tue, 28th Apr 2009 12:13 pm 

@shoestring

Using your analogy:
Depending on what kind of support the parents gives -
1. If the parents just encourage his kid and give him a pat on the back, then no, they are not messing with the affairs of the Union.
2. However if the parents start calling the school teachers, the headmaster and other parents to ‘network’, then yes.
3. What could be worse? The parents start threatening to withdraw donations from the school, exert pressure on other parents who may have a certain dependency such as employment or business association etc. as a form of ’support’ for their child in running for the presidency.

Applying to the current situation:
1. If Derek Hong, support his church members in his personal capacity, then no, he’s not meddling with secular affairs.
2. If he uses his power as a pastor, sending out emails and preaching in his church to rally support, then yes.
3. What could be worse? Doing it in God’s name, in the name of good, and invoking fear and war-like sentiments. Then it’s not only him who is messing with secular affairs, he has also dragged religion along with it.

xtrocious on Tue, 28th Apr 2009 2:03 pm 

I agree with lop…

It has all to do with influence and authority…

That is why we need corporate governance to ensure that there’s no conflict of interest, abuse of power etc…

sicktothebones on Wed, 29th Apr 2009 7:32 am 

To shoestring 1) “Has he taken over premises of AWARE and done his preaching there? No, it is within the confines of the church, their private space that you have invaded”.

Answer :-By sending out emails to influence COOS members to act he has stepped into the boundary of AWARE and involved his preaching outside the church.

(2)”Is it a crime to preach and expound on biblical principles which you/your spy has voluntarily sneaked in to listen to?”

Answer:- No it is not so innocent – by expanding the sphere of insidious religious intolerance into secular organisations this is more than preaching and expounding on biblical principles within the four walls of the COOS. This is a crime and the maintenance of religious harmony act must be thrown at those involved once enough evidence is gathered about the unseen hand behind the stealthy new AWARE moves.

Andy Quak on Wed, 29th Apr 2009 11:55 am 

moderation, tolerance and mutual respect is important and people in a position of religious and moral leadership should have special regards not to sow seeds of discord and hatred in scoiety and moderate their own constituency and not pit one group against another…

as Minister Teo Chee Hian said if you push your argument too hard, others will push back at you, that’s why there is strife and war….

if press reports that COOS senior pastor Derek Hong has sent out emails to his church members urging them to sign up with AWARE and support the new AWARE team at the EGM is correct, then in my opinion he should reflect seriously he is doing the right thing…

it is ok for the pastor to have his personal opinion on AWARE..it is maybe ok for him to openly state his personal opinion on AWARE to his associates, less so in a sermon in COOS, but it is quite inappropriate for a person in religious and moral leadership to overtly or covertly influence his flock to affect the outcome of a secular institution like AWARE..

it is ok for the pastor and COOS to sermonstate or sermonize their beliefs and position on homosexuality inside, or outside the church if it is done with respect and moderation…but the issue of new or old guards at AWARE does NOT equate the issue of homosexualtiy…and the church has no business actively interfering with the affairs of a secular organisation….

if press reports are correct that COOS first denied to the press that the church is involved in AWARE saga, and now openly canvass to affect the outcome of AWARE EGM then the church is condoning deceit and has no credibility…people in position of religious and moral leadership should be very careful and balance in what they do or say so as not to sow discord and hatred…do things with compassion not with mean spirit and narrow-minded hatred and to benefit society not contribute to chaos…

dc on Wed, 29th Apr 2009 8:41 pm 

In what way are religious people in positions of authority overstepping their “boundaries” when the are concerned about the increasing moral ills of society? Are not pastors part of the singaporean community who have every right to influence “civil society”? this is their home, land and country.

I am wary of the overt moral posturing by secularists who want to decide how things are even run in church. Whether the pastor is right or wrong is frankly — none of your business. After all, the argument goes that religionists have no right to determine what goes on in the bedroom between 2 men. Leave the moral posturing to us, isn’t that the role of the religious?

Those who call for secular governance should abide by the separation between Church and State. unless the Church is sowing discord,why should the state step in? and the preaching is always against homosexuality, not homosexuals.

Lop on Wed, 29th Apr 2009 9:46 pm 

@dc

*Applause*

Best argument – Win already lor

Really, the secularists love you. They are just against Christianity, not the Christians.

suresh on Fri, 1st May 2009 12:51 am 

After child-molesting pastors, superstar pastors, there’s politician pastors too! What a world!

LongXiFuZi on Sun, 3rd May 2009 1:54 am 

dc, If religious people stick to their religious organisations, they have every right to their own opinions just like the rest of the non-religious people. It is a different matter when they engage in underhand tactics to invade and intrude on secular organisations, hijacking it to further their own ends under the guise of non religious motives. That is, calling it simply, stealing. Society cannot allow such thieves and their mastermind to act with impunity.

The COOS pastor and his Thio crusaders have simply acted most abominably. They are shameless.

huh on Sun, 3rd May 2009 3:21 am 

Haiz, why can’t all of you see? Its just like a parent finds out that his son is gay and he doesn’t approve of him being gay neither does he promote it but still loves him for who he is. All you gay people with such parents should understand this logic what.